Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Guys,

I got this little fella from Outback Reptiles at an NARBC show in October. He was sold as "pure" thayeri, but the more I look at him, the more I wonder if there isn't something else mixed in. The reason for this is because his background color has stayed so completely white, it makes me think of pyromelana. His snout is off white/grey with some mottled color mixed in, hopefully you can see this from the photos. I have seen pictures of similar white MSP thayeri but I don't know if the white is really a pure white. I welcome honest opinions here. If I still question his purity in the future I would be inclined not to breed him.

Thanks,
Maria

Without verifiable geneology info there's no way of knowing for certain if it's pure thayeri. You can start by counting its ventral scales to see if the number falls within thayeri's range, but even that is not full-proof. Thayeri 190-211 ventrals. Pyro 214-228 ventrals.

There are white thayeri morphs. I've produced lots of them. Many remain clean white as adults. My breeders are decendents of this wild caught male collected near La Acension, Nuevo Leon by Barry Armstrong in the 1970s. It was deposited at Dallas Zoo and bred to other wild thayeri in the early 80s, including a thayeri from Chorro Canyon, Coahuila. As you can see, even for a wild specimen he's a very light creamy-gray; a great starting point to line breed for white.

Dan
www.serpentsonline.com

Dan,

Thank you for your reply and for sharing the photo of that wild-caught male. I am familiar with your exceptional white thayeri line and it is, in fact, because of that I noticed this male. I thought I may have gotten lucky and stumbled upon a descendant of your breeding stock. Of course I realize there is probably no way to trace this, but I took a chance anyway.

This male shed just a few days ago and I did a careful ventral count: 207 ventral scales. Very near the upper range for thayeri, but at least it's within the range. I suppose I will have to be patient and she how his color develops over time. Do your MSP hatchlings that start out very white stay nearly as white as adults, or is a "color" change in this case hard tp predict? I am also a huge fan of your white leonis morphs and I hope to be able to get a couple in the next year or so. I find it interesting that the white color of your leonis phase hatchlings always seems more grayish-white than the white in your MSP hatchlings. Would you say that this is true or it just appears that way because of the smaller bands of white?

Thanks,
Maria

Hi Maria,

Generally, milksnake morph thayeri tend to retain "cleaner" ground colors into adulthood. I can't explain why, they just do. Adult Leonis morphs have a tendency to develop "newsprint" markings (melanin) in their ground color, especially yellow morphs....so much so that they start to look greenish.

White milksnake morphs and Leonis morphs hatch out snow white. Within a few sheds I can tell if they are going to turn gray or retain their white color. I've never raised a white milksnake morph to maturity, but if they are like other milksnake morphs, they should hold their color well. I've never heard anyone complain about my adult white milksnake morphs who has bought one.

The bottom line is all snakes turn darker to some degree as adults.....even hypos. However, the Great White thayeri (as Mike K. calls them....) are still lighter and whiter as adults than any other thayeri morph out there.....even lighter than hypo Greeri.

Dan
www.serpentsonline.com

...check out Mike K.'s close-up side photos of your white-line animals (a few posts below this one). The white on the MSP male is particularly striking.

Maria

Maria,

I remembered this guy from one of your earlier posts and went back to take another look at that pic. Being as young as he is, I don’t see anything too obvious and I personally wouldn’t discredit this male at all unless you discover something more substantial down the road. However, I see your concern with regard to his exceptionally clean and bright white ground color, and if he retains that pearly white into adulthood I might also be inclined to wonder a bit. As he matures, you should see a vague distinction between the thin white outline of his black saddle borders which will remain bright, and the center of his white ground color which should pale, or gray up just a little. From what I’ve seen it seems to be much more noticeable in leonis phase with the wide separation between saddles, and not so much so with milksnake phase examples with narrow saddle separation. Watch for things to happen low on his sides near the ventral.

At this point, not knowing more about his background than you do, I would still plan to breed him and see what happens. He has too much good about him not to. If anything other than thayeri is present, at some point I would think it should become more obvious in a few of his offspring. His asymmetrical head pattern is mighty cool (you called it messed up but some of us like messed up!), and his intermediate saddle trait is also special. Dan produces a few nice whites with the intermediate pattern that are just superb; he has a similar male for sale now that you have probably seen. I’ve been mighty tempted to buy that male just for the intermediate pattern alone, one of my favorites.

Mike

Great photos of a gorgeous snake by the way!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the advice on what to look for as he matures and thanks for being so specific, that was very helpful. With regard to any gray-tones that might come up in the central regions of the white bands, would you expect the scale to turn grey uniformly or only in the middle of each scale? When I look at the white scales in person, there is a darker tone in the middle of the scales, but I think this is due to a structural property of the scales themselves because it is also present in every scale regardless of color. The whiteness in my photos looks very uniformily pearly white, but they are very slightly off-white in person under natural light. Now I suppose I just need to be patient and wait till he gets a bit older to see what happens.

You picked up on another reason I liked this snake; his intermediate band pattern. When I first became aware and attracted to thayeri, I thought the intermediate phase was the most stunning of them all. Now, although I lean more towards leonis, I have to admit that I have a healthy appreciation for all of them. I also really liked the aberrant bands on this guy. And as far as his irregular head pattern being "messed up" as I initially called it...well now I find it endearing and special, so you caught me there! It's funny how our appreciation of little irregularities can become so developed in such a short time. One of lifes little rewards, I suppose.

Take care,
Maria

[ With regard to any gray-tones that might come up in the central regions of the white bands, would you expect the scale to turn grey uniformly or only in the middle of each scale? When I look at the white scales in person, there is a darker tone in the middle of the scales, but I think this is due to a structural property of the scales themselves because it is also present in every scale regardless of color. ]

Hi Maria,

The photos below are of a completely mature white leonis female. The darker tone that is common in a big percentage of the scales that you mention is easy to see in these pics. Looking closely at the scales in the center of the white ground color along her sides, you can also see what appears to be a faint blue-gray border around the outer edges of those scales, primarily along the side edges and base of each scale which makes these appear a darker shade of gray. You will also notice that this border coloration is absent in the dorsal scales which makes them appear a cleaner white.

You talked about how in time our appreciation for the irregularities, aberrancies, or whatever we want to call them, seems to develop in such a short amount of time. Initially with myself, only the perfect ones caught my attention and I couldn't see how anything else could be appreciated by most folks. Having nothing but those to look at, they soon became a little boring with me as well; even though they are always incredibly beautiful. That's when I really started to look closely at, and appreciating the unusual looking patterns and what many would call ugly wild-type colors and being attracted to them. Now I appreciate every single one of them and will never again be bored with only one type of thayeri, and I don't expect I will ever produce any offspring that I don't enjoy as well! Definitely one of life’s little rewards!

Mike

The photos of the adult white leonis female…..

There's nothing like a great picture to illustrate the point! Really great macro shots, thanks a lot!! I see exactly what you mean about the difference between the dorsal and medial scales near the base. How light was this animal as a hatchling? Was it truly white or light grey/white. To me, from the pictures I've seen of Dan's white line animals (mostly based on hatchling photos), the white background in the MSP animals are whiter than the whitest of the leonis phase animals. I am basing this observation, however, only on the images from his website for this season's hatchlings, an admittedly small sample of the whole. It would be great to also see a high quality close-up shot of an adult white MSP animal. I wonder who I can harass to get that one?

Maria

P.S. Life's little rewards... I'm with you 100%!!

...to twist a guy's arm!

Below are pics of a Vermilya white male produced by Dan in 2003, the only white milksnake phase I have here. His mother is the white female in the post above, and his father was a light yellow-orange leonis. That bright minty-green female leonis I showed you before is his sib sister. Disregard the light speckling and interesting red-orange blush beginning to wash over his white scales, and you should be able to notice slightly less of the graying effect we are looking at that I am assuming is due to the narrow white bands. But it is still there. I'm curious to see how he ends up as a fully mature and breeding adult male. Likewise, I am aware this is also an incredibly small sample group and I didn't raise either one from hatchling stage, however I understand that they were both very bright and clean white as babies.

Mike

The young adult white milksnake phase male...

...have a white MSP adult. Again, great close-up shots and a beautiful animal. He looks pretty darn bright white to me! I see what you mean about the slight graying effect, but his white is definately brighter (to my eyes anyway). There also seems to be a very slight yellow hue compared to the leonis female. Maybe a contribution from the father? At any rate, the effect is very nice and is a great contrast to the black and red.

Thanks for sharing!
Maria

...regardless of how they change while maturing. Even though none of them end up that pearly bright white like your young male in question exhibits now, as Dan mentioned they all remain exceptionally bright, very stunning and interesting. Like the one he shared in his reply to you above. Look at that amazing bright pastel color! It is hard to believe that some of these animals are real they are so unique and beautiful, and some of them remain so squeaky clean with respect to a complete lack of speckling.

To be perfectly honest with you, what really excites me about these is in fact how variable the white itself is with respect to these gorgeous pastel colors that are produced. The white seems to be a perfect palette for some truly unique and interesting variety in just the white specimens alone. Working with them we will get some exceptionally nice white animals, along with the bonus of all these nice surprises. It's no wonder that most of us mexicana freaks lean so heavily toward the Variable Kingsnake! And Dan if you are reading this, once again I can never thank you enough for bringing these Great White Thayeri to our attention and developing such nice examples for us all to work with.

So Maria, you know that pastel minty-green you love so much?!! Look again at the one in Dan's reply. And his '03 female I have here, the sort of pastel green one. I would say that your primary goal this year should be to invest in the best of Dan's white thayeri that you can possibly afford. I'll say to you again that you will never be sorry to have them in your collection to work with!

Mike

The '03 Vermilya female from his white bloodline, her mother is the white leonis from the close-ups I posted above. She is slightly pale and dark in this photo as she was just entering the opaque stage of shed phase.....

...this really has nothing to do with what we were talking about Mike, but one of my females just had her post-brumation shed so I took a quick photo. Both she, as well as her putative male breeding partner, have somewhat of the intermediate phase that I like so much. The male is closer to leonis with the erasure saddles. They are by no means flashy, but I like them just the same. I'll be putting these two together very soon. I hope they are gentle lovers, as this is the female I mentioned to you before that was rather feisty.

Maria

Very nice looking pair Maria, my uneducated guess would be that your chances of producing an intermediate baby or two are pretty good. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens between those two. I would love to see a good close-up side view of both of those, particularly the male.

Thanks for sharing!

Mike

...as soon as the male sheds, hopefully in the next day or two. This is the only other picture I have of the male at the moment. He is a nice shade of light grey and his sides are relatively clean. I wish I had a cleaner female to hook him up with. Maybe next year.

Maria

I'll look forward to that Maria, thanks!

That male seems to have a lot going for him and I see much more than just a nice light gray there. He looks like one of those that you have to take a close look at to fully appreciate even though he looks great at a distance and he does seem to be very clean and speckle-free. That intermediate female really is nothing to sneeze at either. Her overall pattern is really nice and looking at her underlying ground color, I think she is a terrific mate for your male and I would welcome a close-up of her one day as well. I wouldn't be too concerned about her dirty ground color, I would think the male could clean that up dramatically in some of the offspring and you might just be pleasantly surprised!

This male's ground color reminds me of a nice light greeri coloration, he looks pretty flashy in my eyes. I'm a big fan of greeri also as you know, and I already miss having them here because of their exceptionally mild temperaments. Maybe I will have another group of them here again one day.

Talk to you soon!

Mike

to the thayeri lexicon. I hope it is pure and someone can verify it for you. It is a real beauty.

Thanks Mike, I certainly hope it is pure as well. Besides the white bands on this guy, I also thought his white snout was very attractive. I guess that's also what makes him look so much like pyro.

Maria

It "looks" pure to me....I even see some black tipping in the red already. You should see some (little) grey tipping in the white as it ages. Also...Do as Dan mentioned..Count the ventral scales...It is easier to count a good shed skin rather than counting the scales on the snake itself.......
Good luck with that one Maria it is a beauty......
And I like the Pyro Phase that Mike mentioned.....Good one.....
John Lassiter

John,

Thanks for the suggestion of the shed skin. His last shed was still in his tub from a few days ago and I did a ventral count....207, so looks good so far. Also, the black tipping in the red areas was something I had not noticed before, thanks for mentioning it. When I looked more carefully, he seems to be developing the tipping in the dorsal scales and not the side scales. This black tipping is also very evident on another older MSP thayeri I have. The red scales on my one and only pyro are solid red, which gives it a completely different look.

Thanks again,
Maria

You can start by counting its ventral scales to see if the number falls within thayeri's range, but even that is not full-proof. Thayeri 190-211 ventrals. Pyro 214-228 ventrals.
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Maria,
That is a beautiful snake. I like those "mountain king phase" myself. Hard to come by though.

If it did have some pyro mixed in, I would expect a ventral count like you got; at the upper range for thayeri or at the lower range of pyro. Can you post a picture of the ventrals? All the thayeri I have seen have a pretty distinct pattern although some are so light it is hard to see.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Hi Rick,

I took some quick shots of the ventral scales of the male thayeri in question (#1), an 04 female MSP thayeri (#2), and an 05 male pyro (#3) for comparison. The 04 MSP thayeri is in pre-shed, so unfortunately the red ventral color is all washed out. Overall, I think the ventrals of the male look much more similar to the other MSP thayeri than to the pyro. What do you think?

Maria

At least that's my vote. Like Dan said, it is impossible to know without some background but, I think it is a thayeri (not that what I think matters much - lol).
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles