Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I snapped this one too this past week.
Janie is back to 100%. She'd been feeling badly for a couple of months after that sitting outside in the cold rain episode, but once the vet prescribed the chloramphenicol she snapped right out of it.
She's eating with gusto again, & itching to get outside into the spring weather!

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PHRatz

Is Janie an ornata or luteola? Chip looks like a luteola to me, but Janie looks like an ornata. I've had people show me luteola that look like ornata and vice versa. I know that a big part of their classification is geographical. Thanks.

>>Is Janie an ornata or luteola? Chip looks like a luteola to me, but Janie looks like an ornata. I've had people show me luteola that look like ornata and vice versa. I know that a big part of their classification is geographical. Thanks.

Good question!!
But... lol I don't know the answer.
Everything I read on this subject is conflicting.
A few things I've read state:
Luteola doesn't have markings on the plastron, uh oh wait yes it does.
Luteola only has yellow markings on the legs, then oops wait it can be red.
Only luteola has a green head, then oops wait a sec so does ornata

I heard a rumor a little over a year ago that taxonomists are considering doing away with the luteola classification because it's too difficult to distinguish one from the other, epecially in a region like mine where they overlap. Then I didn't hear anything else about that so I don't know if it's going to happen or not.
If at this moment I had to make a guess, I'd say Janie is my only T.o. ornata the rest are T.o.luteola but who knows?
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PHRatz

I just now looked at the WCT website's photo gallery & found this:
http://www.chelonia.org/TornataleutolleftornatarightJG2.jpg

None of mine have a plastron that looks like the photo they show to be luteola.

It's all really very confusing. Perhaps some of my turtles are the product of luteola and ornata crossbreeding in the wild?
However Janie's entire body looks like the typical photos you'll see of T.o. ornata.

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PHRatz

I've been trying to load some pictures of my babies recently. If I am successful, I've seen a lot of differentiation in my ornata and luteola hatchlings that you may find interesting. In fact, far more difference than between my adults. I've researched the differences significantly when I was looking into starting breeding projects with them. What I've come to find is that true luteola are always supposed to develop a uniform "straw" or "horn" color with age. This is difficult, however, since it occurs later in life. There are a few other differing characters, such as the number of striations on the 2nd costal scute, as well as thinner striations and muted pattern.
I have been unsuccessful in finding any genome studies, which to me seems the best way to determine subspecies status. I think that they are a lot like the T.c complex that occurs in the extreme Southeast. You have T.c.major mating with T.c.carolina, T.c.triunguis, and T.c.bauri...creating a tangled mess of genetic confusion. I have a gulf coast hatchling from very large, upwardly flared margin, white on the head adults that has three toes...go figure! I've also seen triunguis that had blotched patterns on their scutes like any T.c., patternless individuals, and those with clearly ornata-like striations.
I've been borderline obsessed with the difference between ornata and luteola...mainly because I haven't had a clear answer. That is why I had to ask you. I think you're correct, a lot of inbreeding does occur. I'll try to get those pictures up...they're quite handsome little guys, despite phyletics. Thanks for the reply.

>>I've been trying to load some pictures of my babies recently. If I am successful, I've seen a lot of differentiation in my ornata and luteola hatchlings that you may find interesting.

Oh you bet I'd be interested.
I think you are the first person I've ever "met" who cared one way or the other which is which.
Besides the uniform straw coloration what other differences have you observed? I'd be really interested in knowing.
You said:
>>There are a few other differing characters, such as the number of striations on the 2nd costal scute, as well as thinner striations and muted pattern.

What do you mean by muted pattern? Do you mean less colorful?

I've lived in this desert for more years than I care to think about lol but before that I lived in OK where I saw a lot of 3 toed and some ornate. I paid attention to box turtles as a teenager but not as much as I do today. I really can't remember a time when I have seen what may have been an actual
100% luteolabecause I just can't really tell the diff based on what I've read.
I'd be really interested in anything you'd care to share about what you've learned.
Thanks!
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PHRatz

I'll work on that for you. I'm interested to hear someone else's opinion also...especially someone who lives out West. It may take awhile, though. My wife is due on Sunday and she started having mild contractions. So, hold that thought...

>>I'll work on that for you. I'm interested to hear someone else's opinion also...especially someone who lives out West. It may take awhile, though. My wife is due on Sunday and she started having mild contractions. So, hold that thought...

Oh my gosh! Congratulations on the baby.
I think for a reason like this I can hold that thought.
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PHRatz

Read this somewhere "desert box turtles almost always have more than 10 lines on their second pleural scutes. Ornates have fewer."

Quoting from "Turtles of the United States and Canada" by Carl H. Ernst, Jeffrey E. Lovich, and Roger W. Barbour

Of the T. ornata ornata: "It is distinguished by five to nine radiating lines on the second pleural, and by its generally dark appearance."
Of the T. ornata luteola: "This turtle has 10-16 radiating lines on the second pleural and is generally yellowish. The shells of old individuals often lose their pattern and become uniformally pale greenish or straw colored; this pigment loss does not usually occur in T.o.ornata."

This book also shows a photograph of the plastrons of the two subspecies side-by-side, and the T.o.o.'s appears to have light lines on a dark 'background', while T.o.l. appears to have dark lines on a light 'background'. Maybe that's something to check for, too.

>>Of the T. ornata ornata: "It is distinguished by five to nine radiating lines on the second pleural, and by its generally dark appearance."
>>Of the T. ornata luteola: "This turtle has 10-16 radiating lines on the second pleural and is generally yellowish. The shells of old individuals often lose their pattern and become uniformally pale greenish or straw colored; this pigment loss does not usually occur in T.o.ornata."
>>
Ok I'll write this down & take a good look at them later when I have time. We'll see if anything the book describes fits mine.
Thanks
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PHRatz

I strongly suspect that we won't be hearing from Ken for quite a while...

Ratz....looking at Janie is like looking at 8 of my 9 boxies. The hatchling has kind of different markings. Not sure what He/she is going to turn out being. It does have the yellow going down the center of the shell but the rest of the shell has yellow lines that are not like my other turtles. The markings on the hatchling are more like squiggly lines. I can't remember if that is how all the other boxies looked when I first found them 5-6 years ago or not. If I knew how to put pictures on here I could post them some day when all are up and about again.

Anyway......Janie is very pretty! ....9boxies

I'm still not an expert on photos here but I'll tell you what I did. I'm not a computer geek, that's my DH.. I only muddle along.lol
I went through the link here on Kingsnake to the photo gallery, then followed their instructions to create my own photo album. I'm not good at this sort of thing but I figured it out, I think if I could figure it out, anyone can.
First thing I messed up on was not resizing my photos, now I always make sure I make them small before I upload them.
Once I got photos into the album I saw that they are all listed in alphabetical order at the bottom of each post I make to a message board. All I have to do is highlight the photo I want to add to a post & poof it's here on the message board.
Try going through the photo gallery link & do what it says, it's really not that difficult.
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PHRatz