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can anyone tell me the effects of mangrove snake venom and how severe a case could be? would a severe case require medical assistance (assuming the victim is not allergic to the venom)? does anyone have any pics of mangrove bites? if the effects of a bite are not too severe (even though i dont plan on being bitten) i may consider getting a mangrove instead of the racer or coachwhip i was previously considering to practice handling techniques on. my reasoning for this change of mind is that i want to try to avoid getting a snake and treating it as a stepping stone to the "next level". this is somewhat how i feel i would treat a racer or coachwhip. however i feel that a mangrove would warrant much more respect and therefor be of much more interest to me. also, a mangrove is technically venomous no matter how potent its venom is and i would treat it as though it could kill me, whereas with a racer or coachwhip i would be a lot more laid back because i know that the snake is not going to cause me any harm. please remember that i am 14 (almost 15) so if any of you have a serious problem with me owning a mangrove i will take any advice you may have for me. thanks

P.S. i know this should probably be in the rear fang forum but i thought i would get more replies here.
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1.1 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon

At your age I cannot, in all good conscience, recommend any truly venomous snake, even if it is an opistoglyph.

Until such time as it is you, & you alone who is responsible for you, you should not be placing yourself at risk needlessly.

BTW, what do your parents think of the idea of you becoming a venomous snake owner?

~~Greg~~
Florida's Venomous Snakes

I've always been a fan of Mangroves...some real large ones are breath-taking. That said, I do think that 14-15 is a bit young. A 3'-4 footer would not be bad, but if I had one, I'd either wear one work glove on the left hand, or use a handling stick(s). If you HAVE to do it, explain the whole thing to your parents, and see what they say. I doubt they'll be happy about it, but it's probably a good animal to start with....IF they approve. Don't do it without their approval, it'll cost you in the long run. Trust is necessary with both snakes AND parents.
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here's the situation. my parents are divorced. i live with my mom but she will not allow ANY snakes in her house. i have one of my boas at my dads house and one at my grandparents house. my dad and his girlfriend are fine with me having a mangrove. however, we (including me) are under the impression that a severe bite (if im not allergic) will make me sick and make my arm swell up. i do realize that there is a risk of anaphylaxis (sp?) and such, but i know that this risk is very small. but like i said before i will treat this thing as though it is a black mamba and i dont plan on being bitten. i was going to tell my mom that i wanted an aggressive colubrid to practice handling techniques with, which isnt a complete lie because mangroves are colubrids lol what im really looking for though is information on their venom because that will help me in my decision. keep the advice coming!
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1.1 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon

Dr. Fry has said on numerous occasions that a very bad bite from a very large adult would not require medical attention. I would search the forums for his posts and that will most likely put you at ease. I have a six footer, and it is the fastest snake I have ever dealt with. That was the one thing that took me by surprise. Their scales are completely flat and slick, and you cannot keep them on a stick. Tailing them seems to upset them, in my experience. They really can be handled quite easily with some light gloves and a long sleeve shirt. Again, they are so quick that other methods are really hard and with a bite not being that of a Mamba you can try other methods. Mangrove's were sold as completely harmless snakes for a long time, and many people still free handle them. Mine is more reluctant to bite than any of my other snakes and worries me the least when it comes to manipulating. It's my big pythons I worry about. Good luck, Eric-

thanks for the info. i went on his site and did a search which came up with a bunch of great info. keep the advice coming guys
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1.1 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon

I don't personally have experience with hot snakes, but I think it would be a huge mistake to get one and tell your mother it's not venomous. Not only will she kill you when she finds out, it will prove to her that you're not responsible enough to keep them, and that could very easily mean any snake, not just hots. Also, when you keep a dangerous animal, even if it isn't a mamba, you're putting everyone around you at risk as well. I'd stay away until you know you can do it properly. You say that you don't intend to get bitten, but I don't know anyone who does, and I believe that the point of keeping a racer or coachwhip is to see how difficult it is to avoid being bitten by a fast snake with a hair trigger temper. You don't get that kind of experience with a python, at least not the types I've dealt with.

Just my 2 cents..

i dont really understand what you mean when you say that if i get a hot and tell my mom that it is non venomous it will show her that im not responsible enough to keep one. as i said before, i dont have any snakes in my moms house. they are at my dads and my grandparents houses. my mom never goes over to my dads house and she would never even see the snake. therefor as long as i dont screw up and get bitten and come home with a swollen arm, she'll never know its venomous because she knows nothing about snakes. i have thought about this long and hard and i still havent come to a conclusion. i am confident that i can handle a mangrove and see no problem getting one as long as i can keep it safely without incident.

on a side note, i have been reading the posts on venomdoc.com and i havent found one post by BGF that says a mangrove will do you much harm at all. he says that even in a severe bite (which i believe would be quite hard to obtain because you would have to let the snake chew for a while) not much will happen to you. i know theres always that small chance of anaphylaxis but im willing to take the risk.
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1.1 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon

Good luck finding one. If you find a fresh wc be sure to treat it promptly with flagyl and panacure.
They are out there just not many of them, It took me several months to find mine.

If a mangrove was to bite you (and even chew on you for a bit) CHANCES ARE you'd bleed pretty good, maybe swell up a bit and that would be that....They are not what I would consider a "medically significant" snake" and as such the chances of experiencing systemic symptoms from a bite are small....Also, considering that their venom delivery system is quite ineffective when it comes to biting humans also inhibits a serious bite.

NOW.....all that being said...

A mangrove snake IS a venomous snake, and as unlikely as a serious bite is, they CAN and HAVE happened in the past. Your mentioning of anaphylaxis is a real concern anytime animal venoms or toxins are concerned. In my opinion, a mangrove snake should be afforded the same respect that any other venomous snake should...If your ultimate aim is to graduate to more dangerous arboreal species in the future (i.e. mambas) then treating your mangrove as a mamba makes sense.

However, as tempting as it is to treat your snake like a mamba, you know that it isn't....There really is no substitute for working with the "real deal".....Until you have the experience of handling front fanged venomous snakes, you simply don't know what to expect. (Even then, people that have handled them for years will tell you that they still get surprised by these animals.) SO.............

My advice is to a) turn 18 (or whatever age defines you as "an adult" in your place of residence and b) then find someone that has experience with these animals and can show you how to do things right...This is easier said than done (as many people are not able or willing to take on the liability of training a "newbie" but if your desire is to keep these animals in a safe and responsible manner, then that's about the best advice I can give. Good luck.

-Kris

a garter snake is a venomous snake. As Dr. Fry has documented, the garter snakes we all grew up catching do have a venom gland, and therefore are a venomous snake. Allergies to venom are very rare and, in most cases, people find out they are allergic well before they ever meet a venomous snake. Whether they are stung by a bee or introduced to other venom, the likelyhood that a person who is familiar with the risks would have a negative reaction is very rare. I do understand your point but at the same time we as people can differentiate between a deadly animal, and one that can cause an irritation. If this person has done his research, and it appears he has, and is looking for some support why not. I know I had to learn handling all herps on my own, and it would have been nice to have someone to give me pointers as I went along. I know I've taken a lot of bites from snakes over the years, nothing hot thank god, but I have learned to read snake behaivior the hard way. He is not asking for tips on how to raise a mamba, and lets be serious here, it is just a boiga. Maybe give the kid some help with handling what seems to be a decision he has already made.

(He is not asking for tips on how to raise a mamba, and lets be serious here, it is just a boiga. Maybe give the kid some help with handling what seems to be a decision he has already made.)

Hefte...

I see your point...EXCEPT....he is not asking bout a Boiga for the sake of owning a Boiga....He is asking for tips on a Boiga as a seway into more dangerous animals (i.e. mambas) down the road....If he were asking for tips on Boigas for Boigas' sake, I'd say "wear gloves, carry a big stick"....But he isn't. Because he is asking about Boiga in order to obtain experience with venomous species, it would be counter-productive to treat this Boiga (or any other snake) as a (relatively) safe snake...

In a way he is doing EXACTLY what you say he isn't....See my point?

-Kris

you are correct in saying that im looking to aquire a mangrove in order to help prepare me for more dangerous species. however, this does not mean that im going to treat this snake as though it can do no harm to me. i plan on treating it with the amount of respect that i believe any venomous snake deserves, which is a LOT. there is about a 1% chance that i will ever aquire any type of mamba, but i plan to treat the mangrove just the same as i would treat a mamba. i plan on using all the venomous procedures i know of such as using a holding container when cleaning the cage, never doing ANY cage maintenance without first removing the snake, etc. thanks again for all the great advice and please keep it coming
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1.1 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon

I got off the subject, didn't remember or realize he was using it as a prerequisite(sp?). Some of these things go on for so long it's hard to remember the original question.

Well, the original question was "how potent is mangrove snake's venom?"
And the answer is, "more toxic than most cobras, and quite similar to death adder's venom". Then, efficiency of venom delivery, venom yeld, aggresiveness, strike range, etc., are other problems.

But Boiga dendrophila's venom is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS...