Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm a member of a couple herp societies in Oregon and received an email from an "experienced hot keeper" looking for a butcher to do gland removals. Being calm and cool headed I simply responded that I thought it was tasteless that he would come to a herp society for help, and that I hoped he got bitten and lost the fingers he used to help him write that retarded request. I got in trouble for flaming but really couldn't beleive that someone would approach a group that obviously loves herps, for help to butcher one. Thats like going to PETA and asking the best way to hunt a deer. Anyway, I've got a procedure I'd like to preform on him if only I could find a "reputable" doctor.

just take a step back and take a deep breath. I used to be as upset as you about the subject but there are MANY difficult aspects of this argument; some philosophical, some biological, some ethical. I personally know of several very reputable reptile zoos/traveling exhibits who use venomoids exclusively. Their animals look absolutely perfect, are robust, active, feed well and many very long lived. There is no sign of trauma or anything of the sort. I have also seen butcher jobs; real sad cases where the animals had to be put down. The bottom line is that only a qualified vet should perform this procedure but very few licensed vets are willing to do it (for safety, ethical and other related issues). It is a very complex issue and I personally don't feel it is right to just wish that someone's hands fall off for what they believe in (but that doesn't mean I agree with it). Education is the key....I try to tell folks that unless you are able to care for a fully hot snake, you shouldn't do it. Are there exceptions? Perhaps but I will keep those opinions to myself for now. Our facility doesn't engage in this practice but we have taken in a few venomoids over the years and they appeared to be as healthy, content and certainly long lived as any fully hot we keep. No point to this other than to carefully look at it from all sides, know the person who is making the request (if it was someone lacking maturity and ability then they need to get an earful), and try to educate them on why it is a bad thing to do. My personal feeling is that 99% of people wishing to own a venomous reptile shouldn't (maybe 99.9%!).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>I'm a member of a couple herp societies in Oregon and received an email from an "experienced hot keeper" looking for a butcher to do gland removals. Being calm and cool headed I simply responded that I thought it was tasteless that he would come to a herp society for help, and that I hoped he got bitten and lost the fingers he used to help him write that retarded request. I got in trouble for flaming but really couldn't beleive that someone would approach a group that obviously loves herps, for help to butcher one. Thats like going to PETA and asking the best way to hunt a deer. Anyway, I've got a procedure I'd like to preform on him if only I could find a "reputable" doctor.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I guess in some ways it's like having your testicles removed after you have your children. When I used to handle hots, none had their glands removed, so it was a situation where you always handled a venomous animal as if it would kill you. I think there's a tendancy for snakes that have had the surgery to be handled differently, and you might lose that "edge" when going back to a regular animal. Not that large fangs going into you wouldn't be a deterrant, and some larger boids are close to "fang" size, but it wouldn't be quite the same.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Extremely well said. You share my sentiments. To me, HEFTE's remark is right up there with killing an abortion clinic doctor because of his values.

but I guess I was set off by the fact that the guy approached a herp society for help with it. I may have overreacted a bit but my point was made.

I think I"d share hefte's reaction, but sitting back at a computer is a bit different than a real confrontation. Where else would one begin to look for a venom gland removal? If one indeed was in favour of such a procedure, would they also not be under the impression that it was a common thing to do among reptile owners?

Ian

keep in mind, the original post said an EXPERIENCED keeper was looking for someone to make a venomoid. Most people who truly are experienced would know, at the least, how heated the issue is between sides.

and not only that, he obviously had access to a computer, why couldn't he have searched for vets in Oregon that specialize in exotics, and call them. Thats what I did when I first needed a herp vet. Part of me felt like it was an encitement. Either way I probably overreacted but I think he knew what he was getting into. The other thing that bothered me was that he said he was going to have the two rattlesnakes butchered for educational purposes, specifically to encourage the "next generation" of herpers. For me, a Blood Python, or a Rainbow Boa, or something cool looking would do far more to get people interested than a rock colored rattlesnake. Nothing against rattlesnakes but they are a more bland looking snake compared to other snakes. Not to mention the other snakes are actually accessible to people, where a rattlesnake would not be. His argument was flawed in my opinion.

The OHS has had Rich Richie do show's for them. He is known for doing the surgeries and i would guess that the individual was looking for him and thought he may be able to get in contact with him through the herp club.

Sir, with all due respect, I beg to differ...

Take a trip to the Huachuca Mountains, (or the Chirachuas for that matter) and take a look at the stunning black & gold molossus that live there....Or, take a trip to any of the numerous mountain ranges here in Phoenix and see a few mitchelli...Some of these snakes look (quite literally) as if they were made of sparkling granite....

Agreed, SOME rattlesnake species are pretty drab, but then again I've also seen some blood pythons that were more mud brown than red....Point being, saying that "rattlesnakes are drab-looking" is (at least in my opinion) a bit too general....

To each their own I suppose....

-Kris

I was talking about the comparison between rattlesnakes and other more brightly colored, non-venomous, easily attainable species of snakes. Again, nothing against rattlesnakes but, if you are trying to get kids to love an animal, the "cooler" it looks, the more likely they will be interested. I appreciate your comments but you totally missed the point. As far as Richie Rich, the "Snakeman", he's listed in the phone book. Literally under "Snakeman", so that again makes me think he was trying to encite the argument. The whole point to all this was that you don't go to a society created for the love of all herps to ask where to find a reputable butcher. He then dropped the whole spaying/neutering argument that has nothing to do with a ductectomy or glandectomy. Spaying/neutering as you all know are done to regulate populations of animals that would otherwise have to be put down. These surgeries save lives. Where venomoid surgeries only save the life of the guy that wants to hold a venomous snake, or not take the necessary precautions to avoid being bitten. I do understand that liability concerns stop many schools from having venomous animals in shows or displays but my point is that you could certainly get the same response, and meet the same goals with some nice CB non-venomous species. And around and around we go.

As far as sheer looks, nothing, in my opinion, compares to a rattlesnake...the array of colors, patterns, etc are unbelievable. We built an entire exhibit around rattlesnakes that I called "The Grass Is Rattling" exhibit; one of the nation's largest public display of rattlesnakes (currently over 30 species/subspecies)and also features a variety of exotic venomous herps like king cobras, gaboon vipers, rhino vipers, bushmasters, etc. Although our main exhibit hall is spectacular and has some stunning looking herps, the one that everyone comes by to see are the rattlesnakes. Once they show up, folks can't believe how many colors, sizes, patterns that they come in....we are extremely proud of our rattlers and there's nothing I like to show off more than the crotalines in our collection. I know that the person posting had the right intentions but when you describe a group of animals as "drab" when they are in fact stunningly beautiful, you better be prepared for a few direct comments.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>I was talking about the comparison between rattlesnakes and other more brightly colored, non-venomous, easily attainable species of snakes. Again, nothing against rattlesnakes but, if you are trying to get kids to love an animal, the "cooler" it looks, the more likely they will be interested. I appreciate your comments but you totally missed the point. As far as Richie Rich, the "Snakeman", he's listed in the phone book. Literally under "Snakeman", so that again makes me think he was trying to encite the argument. The whole point to all this was that you don't go to a society created for the love of all herps to ask where to find a reputable butcher. He then dropped the whole spaying/neutering argument that has nothing to do with a ductectomy or glandectomy. Spaying/neutering as you all know are done to regulate populations of animals that would otherwise have to be put down. These surgeries save lives. Where venomoid surgeries only save the life of the guy that wants to hold a venomous snake, or not take the necessary precautions to avoid being bitten. I do understand that liability concerns stop many schools from having venomous animals in shows or displays but my point is that you could certainly get the same response, and meet the same goals with some nice CB non-venomous species. And around and around we go.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I am a MUCH bigger fan of rattlesnakes than any elapid species. Rattlesnakes are just amazing specimens to me, and they top the beauty of a king Cobra any day in my opinion. However, I have seen some quite stunning elapid species as well...I could certainly see where some people could find elapids to be more fascinating in some aspects. Personally, I will stick with rattlers, but ....different strokes for different folks.

Chris

>>As far as sheer looks, nothing, in my opinion, compares to a rattlesnake...the array of colors, patterns, etc are unbelievable. We built an entire exhibit around rattlesnakes that I called "The Grass Is Rattling" exhibit; one of the nation's largest public display of rattlesnakes (currently over 30 species/subspecies)and also features a variety of exotic venomous herps like king cobras, gaboon vipers, rhino vipers, bushmasters, etc. Although our main exhibit hall is spectacular and has some stunning looking herps, the one that everyone comes by to see are the rattlesnakes. Once they show up, folks can't believe how many colors, sizes, patterns that they come in....we are extremely proud of our rattlers and there's nothing I like to show off more than the crotalines in our collection. I know that the person posting had the right intentions but when you describe a group of animals as "drab" when they are in fact stunningly beautiful, you better be prepared for a few direct comments.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center
>>
>>
>>>>I was talking about the comparison between rattlesnakes and other more brightly colored, non-venomous, easily attainable species of snakes. Again, nothing against rattlesnakes but, if you are trying to get kids to love an animal, the "cooler" it looks, the more likely they will be interested. I appreciate your comments but you totally missed the point. As far as Richie Rich, the "Snakeman", he's listed in the phone book. Literally under "Snakeman", so that again makes me think he was trying to encite the argument. The whole point to all this was that you don't go to a society created for the love of all herps to ask where to find a reputable butcher. He then dropped the whole spaying/neutering argument that has nothing to do with a ductectomy or glandectomy. Spaying/neutering as you all know are done to regulate populations of animals that would otherwise have to be put down. These surgeries save lives. Where venomoid surgeries only save the life of the guy that wants to hold a venomous snake, or not take the necessary precautions to avoid being bitten. I do understand that liability concerns stop many schools from having venomous animals in shows or displays but my point is that you could certainly get the same response, and meet the same goals with some nice CB non-venomous species. And around and around we go.
>>-----
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, IL
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

Absolutely Chris...although I do have to admit that my King Cobra is one of the neatest animals to work with. I just took the "bland" comment a bit personally although I know the person meant no harm. Everyone has their thing.

>>I am a MUCH bigger fan of rattlesnakes than any elapid species. Rattlesnakes are just amazing specimens to me, and they top the beauty of a king Cobra any day in my opinion. However, I have seen some quite stunning elapid species as well...I could certainly see where some people could find elapids to be more fascinating in some aspects. Personally, I will stick with rattlers, but ....different strokes for different folks.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>>>As far as sheer looks, nothing, in my opinion, compares to a rattlesnake...the array of colors, patterns, etc are unbelievable. We built an entire exhibit around rattlesnakes that I called "The Grass Is Rattling" exhibit; one of the nation's largest public display of rattlesnakes (currently over 30 species/subspecies)and also features a variety of exotic venomous herps like king cobras, gaboon vipers, rhino vipers, bushmasters, etc. Although our main exhibit hall is spectacular and has some stunning looking herps, the one that everyone comes by to see are the rattlesnakes. Once they show up, folks can't believe how many colors, sizes, patterns that they come in....we are extremely proud of our rattlers and there's nothing I like to show off more than the crotalines in our collection. I know that the person posting had the right intentions but when you describe a group of animals as "drab" when they are in fact stunningly beautiful, you better be prepared for a few direct comments.
>>>>
>>>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>>>The Wildlife Discovery Center
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I was talking about the comparison between rattlesnakes and other more brightly colored, non-venomous, easily attainable species of snakes. Again, nothing against rattlesnakes but, if you are trying to get kids to love an animal, the "cooler" it looks, the more likely they will be interested. I appreciate your comments but you totally missed the point. As far as Richie Rich, the "Snakeman", he's listed in the phone book. Literally under "Snakeman", so that again makes me think he was trying to encite the argument. The whole point to all this was that you don't go to a society created for the love of all herps to ask where to find a reputable butcher. He then dropped the whole spaying/neutering argument that has nothing to do with a ductectomy or glandectomy. Spaying/neutering as you all know are done to regulate populations of animals that would otherwise have to be put down. These surgeries save lives. Where venomoid surgeries only save the life of the guy that wants to hold a venomous snake, or not take the necessary precautions to avoid being bitten. I do understand that liability concerns stop many schools from having venomous animals in shows or displays but my point is that you could certainly get the same response, and meet the same goals with some nice CB non-venomous species. And around and around we go.
>>>>-----
>>>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>>>Lake Forest, IL
>>-----
>>U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
>>Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
>>www.uappeal.org
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I had no idea that Rich Richie was in the phone book or that he went under the name snakeman. You can assume the individual new that either. If you want to talk about buchering dogs, how about cutting off there tail's so they are stubby or cutting up there ears so they stand up neither of those surgeries have any benefit.

and I don't condone either surgury. The rattlesnake thing has gotten out of control. I guess I've never seen a rattlesnake that is as brightly colored, or "cool" looking as a Jungle Carpet Python, or some of the Milk or King snake species. Chalk that up to ignorance I suppose. I look forward to seeing these brightly colored animals and will search through google now for some proof.

I would never condone painful mutilation of any animal but if someone were creating a venomoid in a professional environment it's not much different than a lot of other procedures done to animals like cats, dogs, cows etc.

For one example, I can certainly respect the insurance aspects involved in having a traveling collection of snakes and it's this kind of public education that will help snakes and you the hot keeper in the long run.

There are any number of people that don't feel you should even be able to keep venemous snakes so I'd be careful throwing stones. Personally, if I lived in say an apt. building and found out my neighbor had hots...I'm not sure I would approve.

You can start your search here! www.DesignerAtrox.com LOL
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

You guys love rattlesnakes I get that, and personally I don't have anything against them. But, you can't tell me that any of those animals are as brightly colored as some of the non-venomous species out there. My whole point was that you could acheive the same effect in a school, to kids, by using something else.

You obviously don't know "you know what" about rattlesnakes. Aside from Tim's stunning atrox, there some amazingly beautiful rattlers that will put to shame just about any harmless herp...but hey, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder and I guess I am just blind. But you are right, you can certainly have the same affect showing off a garter snake as some exotic or venomous herp....kids love seeing a reptile no matter what so I do agree in that regard. Its all about education. I use both venomous and non venomous herps in my education but not everyone has that luxury and for the most part, is probably not a good idea unless you have a ton of experience. For years, I just took a few colubrids to schools and the kids loved 'em.

>>You guys love rattlesnakes I get that, and personally I don't have anything against them. But, you can't tell me that any of those animals are as brightly colored as some of the non-venomous species out there. My whole point was that you could acheive the same effect in a school, to kids, by using something else.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Yeah I just don't get it I guess.

n/p
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC