Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I took Patch to the vet yesterday and found out that her arm wasn't broken, it was soft tissue building up because she has laid so many eggs that her calcium is getting low. He also told me something I found really interesting...

He said his experience over the last 2 years is that he has seen many well-cared for beardies (and other reptiles) with low calcium that are using the Power Sun UVB bulbs. He said it is purely anectdotal (sp?) - he hasn't done any research or anything - but he has seen too many cases and won't recommend them to his patients. He said that the "scientific" formula that they use to measure the UVB isn't based on reptiles, it's based on the $15 trillion dollar a year chicken industry and extrapolated to reptiles. He talked to me for almost an hour on this topic so I am completely paraphrasing and hopefully I didn't lose too much in the process, but I found it really interesting. I did a lot of research before spending twice as much to get the Power Sun lights for my beardies and my day geckos but after our talk, I'm buying some regular flourescent UV lights today.

I was wondering what everyone's experience was?

Thanks,
Lisa

Interesting, but without really knowing the actual care conditions giving to these other bearded dragons, hard to say if they were benefiting at all from the uvb bulbs or not, more than they would from regular florescent tube style uvb bulbs. Laying eggs deffinitely puts alot of strain on calcium reserved in female reptiles. Calcium intake should be increased with any egg producing female, to ensure no calcium crash occures.

The process reptiles do to use calcium injested is rather complex. UVB rays are required for their bodies to produce vitamin D3 which intern, is used in some complex chemical process to utilize ingested calcium. Trying to figure out how much calcium to give dragons and how much dietary vitamin D3 is very difficult. Lettting the dragon produce the D3 it needs on it's own is always the best way, but unless we, as bearded dragon owners, can give our dragons access to natural sunlight, unfiltered from screen or glass, it's very hard to produce the amount of UVB available indoors. No bulb out there produces anything like the amount the sun produces outside. In direct noon sunlight, you are looking at something like 200 units of UVB, compared to the 50 or so units provided by mercury vapour bulbs or the 5, 8 or 10 units of florescent tube UVB bulbs.

Of course, in the wild, most reptile are not lying out in full sunlight at noon, most bask morning and towards evening, when the sun isn't so direct..depending on the reptile's needs. Many do seek shed during the hottest times of the day, basking directly in sunlight first in the morning and during or after eating their fill. But how much exposure to how much UVB is needed on a daily basis for reptiles to produce the amount of vitamin D3 they require to process calcium, is still not understood and much more research is needed in this field to understand it more. Alot is now known about it than was known 10 or 15 years ago, but still more is needed to learn.

As reptile keepers, all we can do is our best to provide everything our animals require with what is available on the market. As reptile owners span the globe, very few can keep our reptiles outside in large naturalistic pens year around. Thus, the majority of us have to do what we can with the tools we have.

Are the power sun mercury bulbs not as good as they claim to be? I don't know this. All I really know is they do put out alot more UVB rays than regular florescent style UVB tubes. Is this the only thing bearded dragons and other reptiles need to be healthy and use all the calcium they need to stay healthy? No, other factors are important. Quality of food fed, supplimentation of additional calcium, egg laying etc..all play a part and lack of or too much of one or more of these factors can easily tip the balance and cause a calcium shortage in the body or other problems.

All we can do is be observant, notice changes in our pets when they happen and do everything we can to find out why. Noticing the injuried leg and taking her to a vet was the best thing you can do. Now you know her calcium reserved were depleted due to egg laying and future preventative measures can be taken to keep it from happening next time, such as increasing frequency of dusted crickets with calcium powder, use more calcium heavy greens and make sure the greens don't have to much phosperous or contain oxates that can bine calcium, making unusuable. (ie avoid spinach and kale, though both high in calcium, both are pretty high in oxates as well).

I am sure you will do what's right and your bearded dragon will be much healthier for it. Not saying your vet's theory is incorrect but just pointing out that there could be many other factors not taken into consideration or just not know to the vet, that could cause calcium deficiencies instead of the light itself. It is also just as possible that this particular brand of MVB is not as effective as others...only real way is to test several brands with reptiles in a controled environment to see what the results will be.
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PHLdyPayne

Thanks for your reply. I don't have many friends who can compare experiences with beardies like this (that's why this forum is so cool!) so I really appreciate your thoughts. I respect the fact that my vet said - this isn't something I know based on reputable research, it is just what I have seen in my practice. He also said that he can only form his opinion based on what people tell him about their husbandry too. He can't know for sure if they are actually doing everything that they tell him they are doing. (as you pointed out)

It's upsetting to know that I thought I had done so much research and was doing everything correct with my beardies, but I obviously wasn't giving her enough supplementation, UVB or something. My other beardies are fine, but they didn't lay around 300 eggs in the past year either!

Thanks again! I think what you said was 100% on target!

Lisa

don't mean to butt in here, but I found this interesting that the vet said this to you. As LdyPayne mentioned there are a lot of variables to consider. The reason I find it interesting is in regards to my veiled chameleon, Luna. She died in July at just over 2 years. I had never bred her, she laid 4 large (37-42 eggs) 4x in a year. Here calcium fluctuated a lot and she even developed MBD in the midst of her liquid calcium during and after being gravid (btw, this was all done under the eye of my ARAV vet. We checked her calcium levels regularly, etc.)

It was suggested to me to try a MV bulb, I got a PowerSun (blew out 3x in a year - will never get another for that reason alone) and I have to say, in hindsight, I think the UVB and heat was more intense than needed. I monitored her temps, etc. etc. Obviously I cannot recap her whole history (it's all on the cham forum ) but b/t the forum, my vet and two consulting vets she got about the best care she could. The MV bulb issue comes up on the cham forum from time to time and there seem to be more keepers who are sticking with fluorescent due to concerns with the MV.

I am not posting a question or an opinion, but wonder if other vets have had this same experience. Maybe your vet can share this with someone who may doing research. Many scientific studies begin due to simple observation such as his. I'm sticking with my reptisun.

btw, Luna died after something ruptured and she bled out (died in my lap on the way to the vet). He did not know what but her abdominal cavity was filled with blood. We think it was likely due to to the stress and pressure (literally) of her nearly constant egg development. He also said he found egg follicles (she was working on her 5th clutch).

Anyway, thanks for posting this (both of you!)

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

In the wild, a bearded dragon would only bask in the sunlight for maybe a couple hours a day. Lets say a little in the morning to warm up. When noon-time high temperatures/sunlight comes around, the bearded dragons basically run for shelter. They can't take the intense heat produced by that hot sun, and they can't take that amount of UV rays. Once the sun is lower in the sky, they will come out again, possibly to forage for food and such...maybe heat up on hot rocks/stones/sand/dirt/etc.

The point is, in captivity our reptiles act much differently than they do in the wild. Typically they are out and under their lights almost all day. Some people don't even offer areas where their bearded dragons can hide themselves completely (which is an irresponsible thing to do, as a lack of appropriate hiding spaces can promote stress). Basically, in captivity we would kind of be forcing them to endure the high amounts of UV rays. With our lower output flourescent tubes, they absorb less, but over a longer period of time, so it's really not as far off as you would think.