Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi. I'm new here and have been enjoying looking at everyones snakes. They are gems to say the least. Has anyone had any experience with Underground Reptiles from the Kingsnake classifieds? They have a bunch of different baby CB GTP's from different locales with pics of each snake for sale. Just wondering if I would be safe to order a sanke from them. Thanks for the help.

Hi. I would try and find a breeder if I were you.

Try here: http://chondroweb.com/

and here: http://p219.ezboard.com/fmoreliaviridisfrm1

Lots of great information, insight, and plenty of 100% cbb animals available! Best of luck finding your first chondro. They are exciting snakes to work with; and very addicting.

Hope this helps,
Kevin

I have done buisness with them. I bought two gtp from them last year. Very helpful people. I would definitely do business with them again.

Jeff
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1.1 Ball Python
1.0 Het Piebald Ball Python
3.2 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Centrilian Carpet Python
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Python
1.1.6 Jayapura Green Tree Python
1.1 Columbian Boa
2.1 California Kingsnake
3.2 Cats
0.1 German Shepard
0.0.3 Eastern Painted Turtle
1.0 Mouse "He is our friend NOT FOOD"

Easy way to find out if the animal is cbb or not.

Ask them to show you photos of the sire, dam and incubation. Any breeder wil have these. Or can send you the bulk of them.

Personally I prefer to deal with the person who produced the chondro and by pass any middle man.

Breeders put alot of sweat, tears, money and long days and nights getting chondro babies to hatch.

PS. you'll also be very hard pressed to find any breeder who will sell you "locality" specific chondros.
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

Another foot note..

You can buy, say a "Biak" chondro and think you know what you're getting.. becase, hey it's a Biak..

But, wouldnt you rather buy a "Biak" from 2 "Biak's" you can actually see.. and get a good idea what the offspring might look like...

Point being, chondros run the gauntlet as far as color are conserned.. I could sell you a "Merauke" with out showing you photos of the sire or dam... you can pray that it will have a soild stripe.. but the photo's of the sire and dam that i'm not showing you, are of Merauke's with just a few white dorsal scales.... you're chances of getting anythign that resembles anything from that locality... slim. Though you just spent your money on what you "think" you're getting.

More fat to chew on....
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

So let's assume the babies are captive bred. What makes it so one person can sell them for $300 a piece and someone else is selling them for $600? I just have a difficult time believing that, providing they are in fact captive bred, one snake is twice the quality of the other. I've read alot of testimony that $300 is dirt cheap for a GTP and that you'd be asking for trouble with one that cheap. But why? Is it because of the look of the snake? Could anyone honestly tell the difference between a snake I paid $300 for and one I paid $600 for? I have an English Bulldog I paid "pet price" for. But I could tell you I paid $2500 for him and unless you knew exactly what to look for you'd belive it. He has no health problems and has all the look of a show dog. I guess I could have paid $2500 for one but what would the difference really have been to me? I understand there are poster perfect specimens of snakes out there, but you wouldn't know it from looking at the babies. And I certainly don't plan on "showing" my snake or anything like that. So what's the scoop?

versicolor:

Well i will put it this way is not about showing off your snake but when it comes to a GTP their is a lot of difference on witch one you may want, if you want a big GTP then you may want to go with a Biak, if you want a green with blue markings you may want to go with a full sorong or a jayapura type, if you want a more docile type then maybe you may want to go with a Aru locale.

Again don't take it personal but to you your English Bulldog may have the looks of a show dog but it may not be that way for a show judge so that example is not relative to as you could see, don't take me wrong i know what you mean but i hope to have explain some of the many difference on why you may want to know what you want to what your getting.

Also some GTP go for 600 to 6000 depending on the parents and their coloration and those are for people that A: want to breed or B: want to show them off.

well it sounds that this is getting you a bit frustrated but again you wanted advise and here it is.

i hope that some of the info does help you.

I'm not getting frustrated at all. I am truly curious about it. I'm still not convinced. My example with my bulldog is precisely the point. I could care less what a judge thinks. I just wanted a pet bulldog that was healthy and thats what I got. And I got him without paying an insane amount of money. That relates to buying a snake in the sense that I will never "show" it(is there even such an event?) or breed it. What if I don't care what local the snake is from? And I don't really care what color it turns out to be. I actually think that all the colors I've seen so far are incredible. Even the dull ones. Also, I don't have anyone even remotely close to me that could be considered a local breeder. I guess if I could drive an hour and pick one out that would be worth the extra to not have to have one shipped. I'm just looking for some overwhelming justification for paying twice the amount of money boyond the whole "this snake has amazing coloration" reason. If someone can provide me with that I would be happy to pay the extra.

The other thing that I've noticed with chondros, is that even if you know what the parents look like, you still don't quite know what the babies will mature to. Yes, you have a better chance of having a high yellow adult from two proven high yellow parents, but that might not be the case. Just because you got a red baby from two true blue parents does not mean that baby will have any more blue than say, my unknown parentage Sorong. You might end up having to wait a couple of generations to get those blue adults. Dogs on the other hand are pretty straight forward....breed two ridgebacks, you'll get ridgebacks. They may not have perfect show conformation, but the basics are there. You can pretty much count on them looking like the parent. It's kind of up in the air with chondros. They follow no rules that I can see!
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1.1~Green tree python~Tempest, Whisper
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

I understand your example of your Bulldog; show -vs -pet. A better model might be the difference between buying a pup from a breeder who is devoted to the breed or a petstore that is concerned more with moving stock for profit.
In the case of GTP, my understanging is that the cheaper cbb may in truth be ccb, but turned out in "puppy mills" in S.E. Asia. Those breeders are to be commended (aint ripping off the rain forest), but still at best,those babies have been factory-farmed and shipped long distances.
I am willing to pay a premium to a breeder insure I'm getting what I want in a pet. I'm am not a breeder however, and refuse to pay a penny for the genetic potential for an animal with some pronounced characteristic deemed desirable by others in the fancy.
I want to get what I want. I am willing to pay just that much.

Well you're paying for a service. Any one who has the pleasure of hatching and rearing baby chondros can tell you that you're giving them away for anything less than 400 dollars.

Theres not a problem with imported animals, you just have to be ready for what you're getting yourself in to. The vet visits alone could end up costing you the price of a nice CBB animal. Infact there was a thread just recently were some guy had this happen to him, this is not uncommon in the least.

Breeders often get fustrated by people who buy imported animals and problems or have them die on them. They often dismiss chondros as being snappy, fragile and hard to keep, when this is far from the case. People with bad expierences with chondros will often never return to the species.

seriously the difference a 100 dollars makes is night and day. People who often bargin shop for animals often need to learn from their mistakes.
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

versicolor:

i have to advise to support your local breeder, like Juliana said at least from a breeder like her you could get an animal that is certified to be the locale that is sold as, not only that but you will be able to see what the parents look like.

Another reason that i ask to support a breeder is from my personal experience.

i purchase an Aru Green tree python from LLLReptiles witch mind you is known to be a reputable retailer, and as soon as i got it home from the show i noticed that the little one had RI i called them to ask them if i could return him and well i was told by the manager that i was stuck with him since I had already brought him home.

Long story short I spend $1250 (on a time spand of 3 weeks)on 2 vets, shots, treatment, not including the $375 i paid for him/her to rescue the little guy, I’m very lucky that the little one made it.

i hope this personal experience helps but their is a lot of good breeders out there.

HIS name is Julian. He has some pretty awesome snakes too!!! Gee Julian.....you get a sex change too
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1.1~Green tree python~Tempest, Whisper
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

oops i'm so sorry Julian, and thank you Meg for the correction
i have been to julian's website but i lose my self looking at the nice collection he has to read the Bio.

again sorry Julian no disrespect intended.

LOL,

Well if it makes you feel any better... I would have been Julia if i were born a girl....

No harm done
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

versicolor:

By now you've read a good number of replies to your initial inquiry. Being that this maybe your first GTP enter with caution if you are already weighing your purchase based on price. If you honestly "must" know why some GTPs can be listed for $300 while others may demand prices two times that or even more, the answer is simple: the $300 chondros cost that retailer around $75 ea as they purchased them in massive lots. These farm hatched chondros are then imported into the US by a regional supplier with whom virtually every retail store purchases from. The extremely time consuming chores of getting these relatively fragile neonates to feed on thier own does not happen overnight--it takes many weeks to fully establish a baby chondro so that it will not cause headaches to the new owner. This to some degree is where that additional cost that you are inquirying about stems from. That and being there for you in the future if for some unfortunate incident you arrise into a problem. A retailer will shake his or her shoulders whereas a deadicated breeder will assist you and coach you along. Chondros are an awesome reptile....if you take any advise from these replies, take this one and run with it: Contact breeders and get to know them and buy a verifiable captive born Tree Python. Once you do this, you'll think that that extra amount of money that you invested was pitance.

Rich Culver

Versicolor. What Rich said is the absolute truth.

Even cbb chondros can be fragile at times. For say $200 extra, when you buy a cbb from a dedicated breeder, you will get:

1.) An animal that has been well hydrated all it's life
2.) An animal that has been feeding and is very well started
3.) All the help the breeder can provide to help you be successful(usually for the life of the animal!)
4.) An animal with no known defects, illness, parasites etc
5.) Usually a pedigree documenting the bloodline(very cool to know this info)
6.) You will get to know someone who is passionate about chondros, and can learn from them
7.)Possibly, insurance against future vet bills

There is more I am sure, but just thought I would add my .02

Chondro people are really cool, and you will be doing yourself a huge favor if you start out with dedicated breeder for your animal.

Good luck,
Kevin

Kevin, points well taken. Thanks for your input. And everyone elses too. This is great fun learning about these snakes.

No problem. I am really glad it helped. Just keep looking around, and you are bound to find something worth your money!!

Again good luck,
Kevin

Thanks for the advice so far. So are you saying that even though a retailer is saying that they are selling captive bred snakes and that they have eaten at least 8-15 times and are healthy, well established animals that they actually are not? I see your point in possibly dealing with a dishonest retailer, I am sure there are plenty that are dishonest but what about the reputable retailers out there? I can't believe that all retailers are simply lying. I mean I definately would not buy anything from anywhere without doing my research and making sure i've heard testimonials from people that have done buisiness with the retailer in question. So lets say I find the retailer to be legit and reputable. Why should I pay twice as much from a private breeder as opposed to the honest retailer? And it's not that I "must" know. I just "want" to know. Thanks for all the help and advice.

The majority of the babies that the brokers offer are technically CB, or Captive Born. These are generally farmed babies or babies produced from females that were captured gravid in the wild. Many of these babies can and do very well for their new owners after being imported. Many of them do not. The two major problems I see are babies that won't eat after import and babies that were possibly fed small amphibs/lizards while being "established" at the farms. Many of these food items carry parasites which they pass on to the babies.

So, if you get an imported baby I wouldn't even wait to find out if you got lucky to get a parasite free animal, I would just take it straight to the vet, have it checked for parasites at least twice 30 days apart and treat as prescribed. You may struggle getting the baby to eat.

Shedding on babies is very critical, you do not want a baby that has been dehydrated at any time in its life. I believe many of the animals that were imports that appear to do well for 1-2 years that "suddenly" drop dead are related to past dehydration issues where their internal organs can be compromised. Animals that are treated with Amykacin are very susceptible to kidney problems if dehydrated.

The "entry level" prices on captive bred and born gtps is starting at approximately $400 nowadays. Not too much more than some of the imports and well worth the money spent if you'd like your first gtp to give you nothing but pleasure without the heartache.

Like Jungle Dancer said, there is a good chance you'll get a good, healthy, eating animal from a retailer...there's also a good chance you won't. Even if you do, parasites are a big issue. That's the problem with buying captive born...90% of the gtp's being offered in the $300 range are cb animals the seller has had to do absolutely no work with. Anybody who's gone through what it takes to get most baby gtp's to eat wouldn't sell it for that cheap. Then, if you do save the $300 buying a cb animal from a retailer, you usually end up spending that much in vet bills to get the animal parasite free and truly healthy. You gotta remember, when they say "it's eating and healthy", what they imply at the end of that is "as far as we know...". Leaves a huge grey area. CBB Breeders wouldn't sell an animal unless they were 100% sure it was healthy in most cases...why? reputation is everything in this buisness. the breeders get buisness because they sell cheap animals...the cbb breeders get buisness because they're honest.

Chris
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Female Ball possibly gravid from 66% poss het axanthic
Trio black rat snakes placed together 12/14/05

Chris LaViola
CMLReptiles
Website under construction
CMLReptiles@aol.com

Julian, you're a nice guy and all, but honestly, you need to just shut up when it comes to the whole "locality" issue. It's personal preferance, so stop acting like you're the chondro expert and your word is gold. His question was simply about underground reptiles. How hard is it to simply answer the question he asked? Weither you agree with it, like it, w/e the case, labeling a chondro with a locality DOES give you a good idea of what the chondro will look like as an adult, especially if buying cb or if the seller can't produce pics of the parents. No, personally I wouldn't buy a chondro like that, but hey, that's my PREFERANCE! It's an arguement that can't be won, as there is no right or wrong. So STOP!
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Female Ball possibly gravid from 66% poss het axanthic
Trio black rat snakes placed together 12/14/05

Chris LaViola
CMLReptiles
Website under construction
CMLReptiles@aol.com

Who cares if Julian likes to post his opinions about local animals he can say what he wants,,, No need to try and talk down to someone that may or may not know more than you. I tease him all the time but hey I'm joking I mean no harm.

As for the $300 Chondro's, I used to keep 30 adults at one time of various local types and some designers. I can tell you one thing out of all my adults I have only brought one of my captive born adults to the vet for any type of illness. As for my Wild Caught and farm animals all but one has become sick out of the blue with no notice and a couple had died within two years of me owning them. I have one of the best Reptile Vets (Scott Stahl www,Seavs.com) right down the street from me so if any problems come up I have him to help me out and the money to spend. You have to think about it this way I have paid around $500 for each new local animals that are no longer alive but my vet bills over the couple of years they were alive were around $1500 for each snake and a vet that knows what they are doing. Do you have a vet that specialized in herps in you area and the money to spend if it gets sick to try and save its life?? Sorry but we are only here to try and help you guys out so you don't have to go threw the pain and saddness we have went through that can come up from these cheaper animals. It has nothing to do with looks it has to do with what going on in the inside of the snake that you can't see and they can't tell you that somethings wrong.

No need to argue about snakes lets just keep them and enjoy each other collections.

Tim Rash
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Tim Rash
www.nocturnal-creations.com

***PS. you'll also be very hard pressed to find any breeder who will sell you "locality" specific chondros.***

I wasn't trying to be a d***, but here was my issue with Julian. At no point did the original poster mention anything about locality other than "from different locales"..never stated a preferance...never said he wanted locality specific...never even said he cared. but, Julian still saw a need to post that. and it's mainly the way he put it..."locality"...I keep and plan to breed locality specific animals. I am very close to a breeder that prides themselves on producing locality specific animals. To me, saying it as "locality" was a cheap shot...it came off as "even those saying they have locality specific really don't"...and chances are from reading previous posts that's what he feels and probly meant by it. Sorry, but I'm sick of people trying to act like there's a right or wrong to this.
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Female Ball possibly gravid from 66% poss het axanthic
Trio black rat snakes placed together 12/14/05

Chris LaViola
CMLReptiles
Website under construction
CMLReptiles@aol.com

Chris,

Deep breathing.. don't get so flustered. If you have a problem with me feel free to give me a call.

You will be hard pressed to find breeders selling Locality animals. The are out there, not many are on KS.. I know 3 i can think of who sells locality type animals and will tell you. I have animals from 2 of these breeders
.

What im saying is, the dealers on KS more often than not use this as a selling point rather than fact. Alot of them don't go through the hoops that some (very few) breeders do.
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

Julian,

Like I said to Tim, I wasn't trying to be a d***, I just felt your comments were of no use to the thread. You came off like you were just spouting off the locality debate, yet again, and it just kind of annoyed me. I prob shouldn't have snapped like that, but it kinda felt good to let it out lol.

all I was trying to say was basically don't answer questions that weren't asked in those situations. Now, if he had said "I want an Aru and underground reptiles has one", I'd be right in there with you argueing the chances of it really being an Aru were slim to none...that is all
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Female Ball possibly gravid from 66% poss het axanthic
Trio black rat snakes placed together 12/14/05

Chris LaViola
CMLReptiles
Website under construction
CMLReptiles@aol.com

Chris,

To stand up for my self I actually was responding to his post.. Here..

he said - "They have a bunch of different baby CB GTP's from different locales with pics of each snake for sale."

I said - "PS. you'll also be very hard pressed to find any breeder who will sell you "locality" specific chondros"

Knudging at the point that Underground most likely did not breed their chondros also the majority of breeders here in the US do not deal with locality animals or would call their animals locality specific.

I was not blowing steam or trying to take a stab at the locality debate. But, I can see how it would be taken the wrong way.... sorta.
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

Hey Tim,

Tell you what, I'll give up the whole locality debate if you start running XP Pro .
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Julian Garcia
Chondros Exquisite
Seattle,WA

Hahaha man I go by looks. I could careless where they come from.

This one come's from Yellow Island Cali

How's that Appache Server treating you?? Your getting closer to using Linux than you think. Get used to my desktop...

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Tim Rash
www.nocturnal-creations.com

Just to review, the question was.

"Has anyone had any experience with Underground Reptiles from the Kingsnake classifieds?"

And I have had an excellent experience dealing with them.

Jeff
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1.1 Ball Python
1.0 Het Piebald Ball Python
3.2 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Centrilian Carpet Python
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Python
1.1.6 Jayapura Green Tree Python
1.1 Columbian Boa
2.1 California Kingsnake
3.2 Cats
0.1 German Shepard
0.0.3 Eastern Painted Turtle
1.0 Mouse "He is our friend NOT FOOD"

And, the reason the topic strayed so much is because the "CB" chondros offered by Underground Reptiles are farmed imports.

It is your choice whether you think the risk is worth taking when purchasing farmed babies. Most of the retailers that sell the farmed babies have pretty much the same snakes as there are only a couple of farms in Indo that raise these and the majority of the dealers all get their snakes from pretty much the same places.

Jeff, could you elaborate on your experience with Underground Reptiles? Thanks.

I am confused. Are you asking if Underground Reptiles is a quality dealer or if the animal you purchase from them will be a quality animal? Based on what I have read on other forums and on Fauna's BOI, both Underground and KCRD (your other post) are reputable dealers. If you order a snake from them, you will get the snake. What you need to understand is that they are dealers not breeders. They are only moving a product provided to them by someone else, typically Bushmaster. They can guarantee live arrival but can not guarantee the quality of the animal other than its phyical appearance, what has happened to it while in their care, and what they were told by whomever they received it from.

Would I buy a gtp from either of them? The answer is yes, if they had something I wanted, but that is because I know what I could possibly be in for such as parasites and feeding difficulties. The question you need to ask yourself is are YOU prepared to deal with these problems? Underground Reptiles states on their site that the gtps they are selling are between 6 weeks and 12 weeks old and have eaten 6 to 8 times. That is an honest description which should be expected from a reputable dealer; however, few reputable breeders would consider animals "established" being 3 months old or younger with less than ten meals taken. I would not expect many of these animals to be aggressively taking meals and hope their new owners have some experience with getting these to feed.

If you are looking for your first gtp, spend a little more money and get something "established" so the work is done for you. Otherwise, you are really playing the lottery. You may even want to consider getting a yearling or subadult. Check out www.chondroweb.com or http://p219.ezboard.com/bmoreliaviridis. Their classifieds section occaisionally have breeders selling quality animals for under $500 less shipping. Some of these breeders may even live closer to you than you think. For a wide selection of quality animals with prices to fit most budgets, check out www.signalherp.com.

Good luck,
Bart

I can see how it seems I am concerned more about the retailers honesty and reputation than getting a quality snake. I first and foremost want to have a healthy GTP. I don't mind the challenge of getting it to eat. Although i have never owned a GTP, I have been keeping snakes, tarantulas, bearded dragons, frogs etc. for about 15 years now, so challenges such as feeding issues are not new to me. But I would rather not have the whole parasite problem. If in fact these retailers that claim to have CBB babies are selling farmed specimens, and the probability is that the farmed babies have parasites, then I will more than likely wait until I can afford a snake from a breeder. Unless of course the retailer can provide me with some form of legitimacy that what they are offering is in fact captive bred and born from a U.S. source.

For what it's worth, I got both my chondros from Frantz Herpetological, another dealer. Both ate 3 days after they arrived, and to be honest, my female probably would have eaten the day I got her out of the box. Both are healthy and growing well. Someone on the other forum had bought three baby chondros from a supposed reputable breeder in Europe and ended up with three babies that wouldn't feed. He ended up having to force feed one after a while, so having an animal from a breeder doesn't necessarily mean trouble free. Perhaps I've just gotten lucky, but my animals are both healthy, growing like weeds and completely trouble free. I'd buy from him again in a second. He's been there when I've needed any questions answered, and happily answered e-mails and phone calls at any time. I am not saying that private breeders are not the way to go, but to malign all distributors as having parasite ridden, non-feeders is also not true.

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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.3~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin
0.1.1~Green tree python~Tempest, Whisper
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie
1.0~Black fat cat~Topper
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

No offense to your amount of experience, but getting baby chondros feeding and "established" is a totally different ballgame. I used to work for a very large commercial breeder as the "snake guy". I bred all sorts of snakes from Ring Pythons to Sri Lanka Pythons to Macklot's Pythons. I've never had such feeding issues until producing Chondros. Even the most finiky colubrids were no match for stubborn baby chondros. Sometimes they just absolutely refuse to eat. It's not uncommon for half, or even more, of an entire clutch of baby chondros to parish because of refusal to feed. Take everyone's advice and start with a TRUE USA CAPTIVE BRED CHONDRO. Once you get the feel for them, then decide if you want to go with an import for your next animal. I have nothing against imports as I have several myself, but they can sometimes be more trouble than a new keeper is ready for. As far as Underground goes, I've had good and bad results with them......feel free to email for the details.

Good luck.
Brandon Osborne

Don't be so quick to give up on underground reptiles because they sell bushmaster animals.What most of the breeders here wont tell you is where their original stock came from. chances are they came from bushmasters.For a better understanding of who and what bushmasters is read Kevin Barnett's (ectothermics) post of dec. 13 2005. I have a usa born 2 yr old sorong from bushmaster stock and a 6 mo. old bushmaster animal both doing great. I wanted another sorong but it seems everybody here is into morphs for the money so I went back to bushmaster who specialize in locality animals. I wouldn't breed any of my suriname rtb to guyana or brazilian rtb even thou they're all bcc so I figured my sorong gtp deserve the same respect

Well, I'm a breeder (albeit a small one) and of my 60+ chondros that I own, none are from Bushmaster. Versicolor, I respect the fact that you are asking questions "before" you make a choice and a possible purchase. There has been a significant amount of information provided to you throughout this thread. I hope it guides you to a intelligent decision. As for various morphs....try finding one like this:

Rich Culver

"What most of the breeders here wont tell you is where their original stock came from."

I don't understand your comment at all. I don't know of any breeders that won't tell you where their original stock came from, myself included. It's common knowledge that the founder stock that Trooper Walsh, Al Zulich, etc had when they first started came from wild caught animals. Any reputable breeder will tell you exactly where their founder animals came from, and tell you on a pedigree chart. Some people dont use them, but the majority do. There are many instances where outcrossing is needed, so these animals are brought in from farms, wild caught, etc. There are reasons why breeders never recommend farm hatched over true captive bred and born, all of which have been pointed out in previous posts. If they wont tell you then dont buy from them, which is why everyone here recommends not buying from dealers. Most dealers claim their animals are captive born yet they are captive born in outdoor cages in Indo, and then imported into the U.S. This is where they are skating a fine line and what I feel is a blatant lie just to sell a snake. Sure they are born in captivity, but the conditions compared to true U.S. captive bred and born just doesn't compare.

I own several animals that I know come from Bushmaster. One doesnt eat worth a damn while the other is a chow hound. Both are mediocre looking snakes, but I have no reason to dislike either of them. Is there really and ugly chondro? The reason I bought them was because I wanted outside blood, but I knew from the beginning what I was buying. I knew EXACTLY who bred them, and where they came from. Omission of the truth is still a lie and that is where most dealers fall short. If you know from the start that you could be getting a snake that is farm hatched, imported, etc, I see no reason to not buy it. Being informed on the purchase will make the life of the snake you are buying that much easier to deal with.
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Mike Bair
Chondro Dreams

I just read every single word of this... and I was suppose to go to work 30 minutes ago...

all I gotta say is thanks to everyones opinion... however heated it got to you all...

I am very lucky to have a breeder that lives 6 blocks from my house... he has produced many different pythons... GTP, Diamonds ball's and other snakes...

He personally breeds the GTP by locality and being that he works for a zoo he has picked up animals from different zoos... and some of the best breeders of GTP in the country...

I know that I can go over to his house any time and talk herpetology with him.... anyways when I wake up in the afternoon I will be picking up my first GTP from him... one that he did not produce... he is completely honest with me and that is one of the greatest assets that I have in any of the animals that I plan to breed.... He is selling me a Biak, and I hope to pick up a couple others later in the year from his personal stash...

I have also like the localities of Aru and Soroung... and might get into those... (he is about to have Soroungs lay soon)

anyways I am excited and have always fround GTP... and ETB's facinating...

I am also excited about these diamond outcrosses that I will breed next year... (3-4 year olds)

There is an Underground Reptiles near where I live. My brother has a bunch of dart frogs and bought two of them over there. They had a lot of GTB for sale in small little containers. I couldn't tell you if they eat or not but there were a lot of them. When he brought the frog home it was voraciously hungry and eating non-stop. Not as plump as my brothers other frogs by any stretch but looked voracious nonetheless.