Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just an interesting note...a week or two ago I put my B.I., subadult female, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum, in a cool-down room at about 60*F, and found after a couple days that she was spending all her time in the gallon water jug in her cage, completely submerged. Afterwards I checked on the male B.I. rat, who had been in cool-down for about a month at @ 60*F, and found that he was in his water jug also, and has stayed there over the last three days.

I was a little surprised at this behavior from these ratsnakes. Although brumating in water is fairly common for many species of snakes, including some ratsnakes and kingsnakes, I've never seen it at these warm temperatures. My only thoughts right now are that the winter temps in South TX are so warm that even 60* feels pretty cold to them and they may be protecting themselves from what they feel could be a frigid cold front coming through. Just thought it was some nice little behavior I could pass along.

Cheers everyone....TC

Photo: my old, 2000 male...

-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Hey Terry, Very interesting behavior. What is the humidity in their cages? Here in S.TX, humidity is generally pretty high, even through winter, and maybe they are reacting to low humidity. Or, maybe they are in shed and soaking themselves. I have noticed that my meahllmorum are pretty smart about shedding, and even if I don't know they are in the blue (I usually put in a moist hide)they will sit in or crawl through their water bowls. I wouldn't think that 60* would seem like a major cold front to them (it was in the 30's in the lower Rio Grande valley last night), but I could be wrong. Toby

Hi, Toby. That's a good point about the humidity. I've been thinking about that myself today. The humidity is quite low in my Herp Room, getting down to 25-35% when it's very cold outside and the heat's on. But the snakes rarely do that when the Herp Room temps are in the 70's. At night the temp gets down to around 70* and the humidity is a little higher.

I opened the door to the room the female was in earlier (extra bathroom), and the temp gradually worked up to 70*F. The room the male is in stayed the same (60*F.) I just came in a few minutes ago and the female was out of the water and in her hide box. The male is still in the water. Also, the humidity in the male's room is 50%. So, I don't think it's the humidity.

This is the first year I've brumated my B.I. ratsnakes for more than a few days. I didn't notice if they did this last year. And they've never been kept below 60* before. Although 60* is not very cold by itself, the drop to 60* for a snake not used to it could make them sense that they were in danger. I know my babies were very sensitive to the cold. ASAMOF, one of my baby B.I. died when I exposed it to 55-60*F. it's first winter for a few weeks. It was then I decided to be very careful about cooling meahllmorum.

Thanks for the response...

TC

Since Werler and Dixon note that they overwinter in animal burrows in South Texas, maybe it’s both a humidity/moisture and security type of thing?

I was curious – do you always have gallon-sized water jugs in their cages, or just during brumation?

Thanks for posting the observation.

-Joan

>>Just an interesting note...a week or two ago I put my B.I., subadult female, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum, in a cool-down room at about 60*F, and found after a couple days that she was spending all her time in the gallon water jug in her cage, completely submerged. Afterwards I checked on the male B.I. rat, who had been in cool-down for about a month at @ 60*F, and found that he was in his water jug also, and has stayed there over the last three days.
>>
>>I was a little surprised at this behavior from these ratsnakes. Although brumating in water is fairly common for many species of snakes, including some ratsnakes and kingsnakes, I've never seen it at these warm temperatures. My only thoughts right now are that the winter temps in South TX are so warm that even 60* feels pretty cold to them and they may be protecting themselves from what they feel could be a frigid cold front coming through. Just thought it was some nice little behavior I could pass along.
>>
>>Cheers everyone....TC
>>
>>Photo: my old, 2000 male...
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988
>>
>>Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Thanks, Joan. I made comments on humidity to Toby above. I don't think it's a humidity thing, but believe it could be a security thing.

Since it rarely ever gets below freezing in South TX, brumating in rodent burrows would pretty much insure the snakes were safe from that. However, they do get active when temps are favorable, even in mid-winter (according to folks I know). I think the fear would be from getting caught on the surface where they would be more exposed to cold. Our cages, with no underground retreats, might put that fear into them, especially if the temp drops quickly.

>>I was curious – do you always have gallon-sized water jugs in their cages, or just during brumation?
>>

I almost always have the gallon water jugs in all my ratsnake cages, unless they're very young. I sometimes have a smaller water jug in there also, as I often empty the gal. one so I can put food into it. Two water containers insures there's fresh water in case they deficate in one and I don't get to it in a timely manner. All that water also adds to the humidity in a small way in the cage, and it gives the snakes a secure place to soak in case they want to do that. It's always worked for me with my particular circumstances and having mostly ratsnakes (including Asians). Thanks for the post.

Photo: my typical setup with ten gal. tank and one gal. water jug, smaller jug, and other accessories..not pretty, but functional..haha...

If not humidity, then you must be right in that they felt threatened at the temp drop and were seeking security. Interesting setups with the water jugs. I like seeing how other people successfully maintain their animals. I keep all of mine in tubs in homemade racks. -Toby

Thanks, Toby. I've always liked aquariums, I guess because I like observing my pets all the time. They're also easy to clean and versatile.

This is one that I put a moist hide into for a gravid bimac, which likes to bask in the mornings. Notice the other jugs in the background...

Visibility is the problem with tubs. I do miss keeping mine in glass terrariums, but my snake room is pretty small and racks are compact. I have moved my bigger snakes into 95 qt tubs which are pretty good for visibility, for tubs anyway. The good thing about tubs in a rack is that it is kind of like a big hide box and I have noticed some of my more timid animals move around a lot more than in exposed terrariums.- Toby

So much of our hobby is personal. I try to just throw out some thoughts and not sound pushy when I talk on the forums, 'cus I know there's folks sayin' they're a lot different in how they do things. Another thing is I'm always learning too, so next year I might be doing things a little different.

For most of my life I never kept any animals, except during the summer I'd keep a few herps or other things for a few weeks and then let them go. I remember I always thought you had to let them go before it got too cold, so they could find a good place to hibernate. I didn't start keeping snakes all year until the mid-80's. I finally decided to do some breedings in 1988. I always kept them in tanks...10, 15, 20 gallon. I liked to observe behavior and write about them. Back then most of us didn't have any cameras either. That sure has changed.

My Herp Room is really small too, 10 x 12 ft. I have my computer stuff, terrariums, and all my books and magazines, etc. Plus I squeeze in a stereo, humidifier, and other junk. I'm always thinking about how I can manage things more efficiently, but I still have almost all aquariums. I want to get new snakes all the time, but try real hard to resist. My two racks only hold 16 tanks each, max 32 adult snakes.

I try to keep each tank as functional as possible. In other words, everything has a purpose, even the tank's position in the room (whether it catches sunlight, or not). One of the reasons I have chosen the species I have through the years is because of their size. Almost all the snakes I have now are of small size. So, I can use small tanks. I want my snakes to be happy too, another reason I try to keep the numbers down.

Cheers...TC

>>Visibility is the problem with tubs. I do miss keeping mine in glass terrariums, but my snake room is pretty small and racks are compact. I have moved my bigger snakes into 95 qt tubs which are pretty good for visibility, for tubs anyway. The good thing about tubs in a rack is that it is kind of like a big hide box and I have noticed some of my more timid animals move around a lot more than in exposed terrariums.- Toby

Yeah Terry, I know everybody has their own way of keeping their animals, and I respect that. I'm always open to new ideas in husbandry myself. I was like you in keeping local herps only during the summer months, and I would let them go at the end of summer. I didn't start keeping snakes full time and breeding until just a few years ago when I got my big meahllmorum female. I had kept individuals before and had been reading about them since I was a little kid, so "why not?" I also want my snakes to be happy and healthy and act as naturally as possible, so I try to give as much room as I can (as well as a large water bowl, dry hide and moist hide and a temp gradient) and have been moving all of them up to bigger tubs recently. I also keep each one in a seperate tub, from hatching. In my opinion, meahllmorum are good tub snakes; they don't climb much, are not as nervous as some other rats and stay a decent size. I also have pretty much decided to keep my collection the size it is, along with a neonate or two from each clutch. Thanks for the post. - Toby

That sounds very plausible, as that last arctic blast reached down and chilled us but good! It got down to below freezing two nights in a row...not amazing to most but God awful for us semi-tropical folk!!! Here's a Nueces county S.P. for ya'!
Todd Hughes

Thanks, Todd. Nice speciman.

I noticed that s. TX was getting some of our winter a few days ago. My male Brazos Island rat is still brumating in his large water jug. It's been about two weeks. It's been really cold here and I believe the snakes can sense the outside temps.

PS: Toby and I are doing some breeding projects with crossing albino corns to meahllmorum this spring.

TC

Hey Todd, What part of South Texas are you in? I am in northwest Corpus (Calallen). Yeah, that freezing weather makes us south Texans hibernate! If you are in the Corpus area, do you know about the Bay Area Herpetological Association? The next meeting is on Tues Feb 28th. That's a nice looking meahllmorum you got there. Do you breed them also? Here's a pic of an '05 Nueces County sgp and the next is the mother. - Toby