Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dear Ball Python-People: I try not toeditorialise when I post press, however, if you ever wonder why your speciality is treated like other, larger animals in some jurisdictions, it could be because of placement of B-P related events within an item concerned with other problems. Readers then come to associate that: 'All snakes are the same ... bad!' I've highlighted the relevent bit further on. Respects, Wes

STUART NEWS (Florida) 10 February 06 Legislators want tougher law for reptile owners (Michael Peltier)
Tallahassee: Pythons and lizards and anacondas, oh my!
That's the message Florida wildlife officials and a pair of state lawmakers sent Thursday as they gathered to launch legislation to put tighter regulations on bone-crushing reptiles they say are slithering their way across South Florida.
Faced with a proliferation of giant snakes, monitor lizards and other dangerous non-venomous reptiles dumped in the wild by overwhelmed pet owners, two Treasure Coast lawmakers are sponsoring measures to stop the invasion of exotic predators that are competing with native species for food.
If approved, the measure would require a $100 fee from owners of large non-venomous reptiles to fund education efforts and amnesty programs. The bill would add Burmese, African rock, reticulated and amethystine pythons and monitor lizards to the list of reptiles requiring registration.
Officials estimate as many as 5,000 Floridians would be required to register their pets.
"Many people are purchasing these (animals) and then finding out when they are no longer 2 or 3 feet long but are now 10 or 12 or 15 feet long," said House sponsor Ralph Poppell, R-Vero Beach.
Despite a few sensational snake stories, state wildlife officials say the public does not appreciate the scale of the problem, which is getting worse in remote regions throughout the Everglades and Southwest Florida. Last year, game officers found 71 adult constrictors in the Everglades, which they say represents a tiny percentage of the well-camouflaged critters living in the region and competing with native species for food.
A major problem facing wildlife experts is the release of large reptiles by pet owners who buy the animals as babies and can no longer care for them as they reach mammoth proportions.
"We have a great climate here; we're surrounded by water and have many ports," said Marianne Gengenbach, representing The Nature Conservancy. "As such we are uniquely vulnerable here in Florida to invasive species and their ability to not only survive but thrive in this state but wreak havoc."
State law already regulates the possession of venomous reptiles. Poppell's measure would expand the scope to a group of non-venomous creatures including pythons, anacondas and monitor lizards. If approved by lawmakers, the wildlife commission would draw up rules by September.
The reptilian roundup is part of a larger initiative to revamp state laws regulating all kinds of big and often dangerous animals kept as pets.
Close Encounters Of The Scaly Kind
• Fisherman Jerry McBride caught an 11-foot albino python along the bank of the Indian River Lagoon at Walton Road in November.
• A 13-foot Burmese python burst after it apparently tried to swallow a live, six-foot alligator whole in October.
• A 10-foot African rock python was trapped by a turkey it swallowed in October when it couldn't fit back through the fence it crawled through to enter a Miami nursery.
• A 12-foot Burmese python was suspected in October of eating a Siamese cat named Frances in a Miami Gardens backyard.
• About 54 people called to claim an escaped python in Vero Beach — until they realized there would be a fine for letting it loose.
• A baby ball python was reported stolen in August from a Port St. Lucie pet store.
• A beagle puppy named "Python Pete" was employed early this year to sniff out the invasive snakes in Everglades National Park for capture and destruction.
The Associated Press, Vero Beach Police Department Animal Control Officer Bruce Dangerfield, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and Scripps Treasure Coast Newspapers
http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/florida_news/article/0,2820,TCP_24432_4455375,00.html

TALLAHASSEE DEMOCRAT (Florida) 09 February 06 Legislators propose licensing snake-owners
Alligator-eating, headline-grabbing Burmese pythons in the Everglades are giving reptile regulators the push they need to seek a law governing exotic snakes and giant lizards much like guns.
At a Capitol press conference today, Rep. Ralph Poppell, R-Vero Beach, and Sen. Bill Posey, R-Rockledge, announced intentions to require $100 permits for anyone hoping to own a giant python or Nile monitor lizard, among other yet-to-be named exotic reptiles.
It's not ownership so much as disposal of the critters that sponsors want to control.
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060209/BREAKINGNEWS/602090349

>> It's not ownership so much as disposal of the critters that sponsors want to control.

I am amazed at how many idiotic (for lack of better words) and apethetic people there are in this world - adults as well as kids. If we want to continue to enjoy our hobbies, we must be responsible. Unfortunately, the reptile industry has a negative image. I think there are quite a few owners that are quite capable of taking very good care of their animals. It's the ones who do not use their heads that make us look bad. Personally, I think owning any large boid such as a burm, rock or retic, should require something extra to track it. And I don't think pet stores should be able to sell them like candy. I was in a local pet store with a guy trying to sell a burm - about 6 foot long - and he was telling the would-be owner that it was full size. I was at a show where mom and dad were buying their teenage son a baby - 18 inch - american alligator from a big named breeder (Ball Python). The breeder was irresponsible and did not inform them that this cute little 'gator could soon make a short meal out of their son. I was amazed and walked up to mom and dad and asked "Do you know how big this little guy will get?". Of course they said no. After I told them it could easily reach 15' and they cannot be tamed (enough), they proceeded to buy it anyway. Gene pool needs more chlorine.

Bottom line: if you want to be treated as a responsible keeper, you have to be one first.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I agree with you but in Florida there are other problems...we presently have a group of private citizens that are having monthly meetings to make proposals to Fish and Game about regulations. The problem is this group is made up of big and powerful people that are not on "our" side...meaning the hobbiest. There are people that are on this committe that belong to the Humane society...there is 1 individual that is a big name breeder ... others belong to some so called sanctuaries. I am in the process of gathering info on this group and will post when i have a complete story and info...the bottom line here is this groups proposals favor only those that live in rural areas far away from big cities and also are bordering on banning breeding all together...more info to come.
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Michael Enriquez

If "we" did not provide them with reason, they would not have a cause to champion and without support, from "us" in the way of being irresponsible, no one would listen to them. You tell Mrs. Magillicutty that Foo Foo can be eaten by a python and then show her news reel after news reel of released and captured anacondas, she will fully support a ban on corn snakes. If they have no fuel, they have no fire. "We" just keep on providing fuel by releasing these animals in the wild and selling them irresponsibly.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I agree with you to a point, however the problem does not arise from released animals anymore. There is a large breeding population of burms, retics, anaconda's in the everglades and no amount of regulation regarding the private sector will change that. The problem is that nobody in this hobby stands up for what they believe. Nobody wants to confront these politicians to fight for the priviledge to keep these animals. When Columbia, SC proposed a ban, they opened up 4 different forums for people to attend and support or fight the ban. I went to all 4 and was only one of no more than 2 handfulls of people there to oppose the ban. On the other side however, there were several dozen people supporting the ban. If we don't stand alone none of us will be able to keep the animals we love. On another note, comming on a public forum, that these people get information to fuel thier fires, it is not wise to state that there are tons of irresponsible keepers just letting thier burms go and breed the recklessly, it's not true and only hurts our cause more.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

PS. I saw a pack of 7 stray dogs on my way to work this morning, they need to put a $100 fee for each dog produced and sold.
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

>>I agree with you to a point, however the problem does not arise from released animals anymore. There is a large breeding population of burms, retics, anaconda's in the everglades and no amount of regulation regarding the private sector will change

Had these not been released to begin with...

>>that. The problem is that nobody in this hobby stands up for what they believe. Nobody wants to confront these politicians to fight for the priviledge to keep these animals. When Columbia, SC proposed a ban, they opened up 4 different forums for people to attend and support or fight the ban. I went to all 4 and was

There was a ban proposal a few years (maybe a year) ago on large boids. It included the BP - hardly large. I wrote and received a reply and the BP was removed from the list. Some people do work.

>>On another note, comming on a public forum, that these people get information to fuel thier fires, it is not wise to state that there are tons of irresponsible keepers just letting thier burms go and breed the recklessly, it's not true and only hurts our cause more.

If you think this has any weight on the current situation, you need to reconsider. The only "antis" that troll for this type of information use it whether they find it or not. The average "Joe" that votes on these proposals does not come anywhere near these types of forums. All they vote on are based on news reals and news articles. When is the last time you've seen headlines for "Dissent amoung Python keepers - ban the boid!". Never. It's not newsworthy.

>>PS. I saw a pack of 7 stray dogs on my way to work this morning, they need to put a $100 fee for each dog produced and sold.

That is a good and solid argument that has been going on for longer than you and I have been on this planet. But dogs and cats are cute so they find themselves in a different (public) category.

Think about your tag line with pit bulls. It applies equally well here.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

"Had these not been released to begin with..."

Your right, but it is a little to late to think that way, as even if they were banned outright it still wouldn't help!! It's to late to say "hay lets stop them from being pets", and this is just a way for the politicians to say we are doing something, with out realy doing anything to help the problem.

as posted below, I think it is a step in the right direction, but a VERY small one!!
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

I never said to ban them. If you look in my post, you'll see I advocate responsibility and common sense.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I didn't meen you said to ban them, but even if the state banns them, sorry for the confusion.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

I agree we wouldn't be having this form of a discussion if the animals weren't released to begin with. However, the way the majority were released wasn't intentional. In 1992 there was a huge huricane called Andrew. When Andrew passed through Homestead/Miami-Dade there were several large breeding/import facilities that were destroyed. When this happened, a substantial amount of large and small pythons, boas, cobra's, colubrid's, and other assorted snakes escaped. To this day you can go on a herping trip and with luck find wild bred cobra's around homestead.

And about my Tag line, I also support any laws that require a person to register thier dogs and submit to yearly vet check-ups to verify the animals health. During these check-ups, a vet could easily see and report any evidence of fighting, or temperment instability ( a very undesired trait in pit-bulls ). I also think every dog sold in pet stores or by breeders should be micro-chipped and the sellers should register the animals with the microchip company. this could also be used with large python breeders to help hold people accountable for thier actions.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I won't argue how the majority got there - neither you, I or anyone else really knows.

>>I also think every dog sold in pet stores or by breeders should be micro-chipped and the sellers should register the animals with the microchip company. this could also be used with large python breeders to help hold people accountable for thier actions.

Exactly my point! Do not ban, but regulate.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Need to speak up. Now. Before there are laws passed.

Here's the link to write to the commissioners:
http://myfwc.com/aboutus/commiss.html

Why let a bunch of people that don't have a clue ruin an exciting hobby/business for the rest of us?

Let them know you value your animals and do all possible to prevent them from escaping. Personally, I don't oppose requiring a permit and I think all invasive/nonnative exotics should have to be registered at the point of purchase level. It's a little more paper work for breeders but it will drive home the point that these animals aren't "disposable".

Remember the old adage "the squeeky wheel get the grease".

Cheryl

As I have said before, here in the burm forum, and yesterday on another forum, I'm all for it, but it is not even close to being enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The $100 fee is a good idea, but it will do little good if the pet stores are not made to check to see if the buyer has the permit, kinda like checking ID's for beer or cigarettes. It also would go a long way if the pet stores stopped charging only $40-$50 for a snake that can get to 20'+, stopped selling them to kids, old and young. There is a lot more that needs to be done, and we as the keepers of these great snakes, should be the ones to make it right, not some dumb@$$ committe, that has no idea about what day it is non the less how to care for a lg reptile. It should be up to US and if we don't do something and fast we WILL LOSE our rights to keep them.

What I would like to see(I know it wont happen) is a larger fee,(like $300-$500 per snake) and twice a year inspection BUY A STATE OFFICER for any and all lg reptiles. I would like to see laws that would put a stop to pet stores selling lg reptiles,(lets face it, if you can't buy from a breeder, then more then likely you shouldn't have it in the first place). I know it sounds a little over the top, but it is a lot better then an outright ban, and the money they get from the fee's could help with the burms and others that are breeding in the glads.

Also, if more of us would take the time to go to schools, and teach the next generation about reptiles, it could help, as they would have the right info, and not just the badside that the news shows.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

$500 per snake in fees, that's rediculous. If that were to happen the price for any large species of snake would be next to nothing. The same thing that happened to the siberian lynx would happen to burms and retics, those that are breeding them for a living can no longer afford to feed and house the breeding stock and in a single move they would all or most be killed or released. When the fur trade bottomed out, in one week over 2k siberian lynx's were killed and they instantly became very endangered. Those breeders that couldn't bring themselves to kill the animals they love would just release them into an ecosystem that has proven that it can sustaine these animals. How would that benefit anybody. If we as destructive humans wouldn't have developed and killed off the everglades, there would be bears and florida panthers there that could easily prevent any brooding mothers from hatching enough eggs to sustaine a population. Don't get me wrong, some regulation would be nice. A non-venomous permit that costs something like $50 for the first year and then $25 every year after to keep 1-10 animals anything more than 10 animals should require a breeders liscence that should be $100 per year. With these liscenses, there would be a basic husbandry test/questionaire and if failed no snake for you. Remember this is a hobby to 90% of the peope that keep snakes, make it that expensive, and nobody enters it.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

the store I got him from gave me the forms for his Fla permit and went over how to fill them out with me. They left it at that and assumed I would send it in. It was a personal pet permit and there was no fee charged for it.

The class three for possession, exhibition and sale that I have for my snakes has a fee of $50 and I *think* you can own an unlimited amount.

If the pet shops were required to have thier customers fill out the forms for even the no charge personal pet permit, forward them to the F&W and to inform thier customers they had to renew it every year it just might keep people from releasing thier unwanted pets if they know there's an official paper trail attached to that animal.

Cheryl

That is so cool - do you still have the skunk? (pictures?)

Everything is illegal here - and since some idiot released Reggie (a croc?) into a park lake last year - everyone is up in arms about making it harder to own exotics.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Like I said it may sound a little over the top but it is better then a ban.

" $500 per snake in fees, that's rediculous. If that were to happen the price for any large species of snake would be next to nothing. The same thing that happened to the siberian lynx would happen to burms and retics, those that are breeding them for a living can no longer afford to feed and house the breeding stock"

That very well could be a good thing!!!! less breeders, less snakes, less kids getting them, less getting let loose, less in the news, and maybe HIGHER prices!!! you know if you had to pay more then $40-$50 for a burm, you might not think of letting it loose so fast!!! There are way too many burms out there already, so I do think we could use A LOT LESS BREEDERS. My very first snake was a burm, I love them to death, but even I will not breed them any more cause there is just too many burms and not enought RESPONSIBLE keepers!!!!!!!!

Maybe $500 is a bit much, but $100 is not even close enough to keep them out of hands that shouldn't have them.

The more you pay for a permit, the less likely you will be to not give the animal the right care, or let it loose.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

the more you pay for permits will not change people's ability to care for a snake or thier willingness to buy these animals. The only thing that is going change the fact that these animals are not cared for like they should be in some cases is to provide information that is easily available to customers at the time of purchase. This is how it should work. At time of purchase, seller hands out a general care sheet packet before money is exchanged. Buyer is required to read and sign stating they are aware of the requirements of the animal. The signed form is returned to FWC along with a $100 permit fee. Granted this will not stop all releases of animals, or stop everyone that can't care for them from buying them, but it will make sure everyone is properly informed before they have a 12ft snake on thier hands.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"the more you pay for permits will not change people's ability to care for a snake"

See I kinda think it can, as someone who is willing to pay such a high price is more likely to also get all the info, caging, find a good food source, and take the whole experience more seriously. That in itself will help out a lot. It wont do a thing with the wild ones in the glads, I don't think any legislation , or regulations can help that.

"At time of purchase, seller hands out a general care sheet packet before money is exchanged. Buyer is required to read and sign stating they are aware of the requirements of the animal. The signed form is returned to FWC along with a $100 permit fee. Granted this will not stop all releases of animals, or stop everyone that can't care for them from buying them, but it will make sure everyone is properly informed before they have a 12ft snake on thier hands."

Now this, were kinda thinking the same way, just I would like to see the buyer have to show the permit BEFORE taking the snake home. Also the state would have to inforce it, and make atleast once a year "check up's" on anyone with a permit, and if they no long have the snake in question, then they had better have proof of it's sale, death, what ever, or face a year in jail. Some one said microchip and I think that is a great idea, that way when the state officer comes buy he can verufy it's the same snake. Now I havent found a good way to track the offspring of breeders yet, how do you prove how many eggs hatched?

For the state to do that I think they would NEED to charge more then $100 a permit. Trust me I have spent some time thinking about this, this isn't new, they been working on this for years.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

>>Also the state would have to inforce it, and make atleast once a year "check up's" on anyone with a permit, and if they no long have the snake in question, then they had better have proof of it's sale, death, what ever, or face a year in jail.

Here in Florida the FWC does not even check licensed venomous keepers each year... so, the real issue become how to pay for the new service of thousands of annual onsite inspections? I'm not sure a $500 permit fee would even cover that... It would likely require multiple officers, vehicles, etc... probably not enough interest on their part to even do this. I'm against more regulation personally as the 'underground' market would likely still flourish if strict enforcement were not performed (which would likely be the case in my opinion). Who knows in the end...

Matt

reason......."if you give them an inch they take it all "

there are many many idiots in the world......and a whole batch of them make up the laws.....and they hate snakes to begin with........so when the bill is set before them to stop any species that gets over 10 foot....some askhole will just stick the number 4 in place of the number 10 when it gets to the vote.and the morons will not care or not notice and just vote it through anyways........then you all will be breeding garters and ribbons and DeKays'...........and making a whole $.50 a years from it too...........whheeeeee

give up nothing.......America is supose to be FREE

...why do I pay taxes ....to buy a bomb........to kill noone in an empty building?.............

......S.O.D. says also..."they're going to build a prison" in the first song on Toxicity........waste money too?.....

etc etc
etc 'etc
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are they really?.....wow

what is interesting in this news report is they state a very clear problem but their proposed solution, doesn't solve the current problem at all.

putting a permit to own large snakes, will only help if it's enforced at the buying point, not at the possessing point. just as there is an age requirement for a person to buy smokes or beer, it doesn't stop underaged from getting booze and cigaretts over the counter, not to mention just getting older friends/siblings to buy it for them. petstores will have to be regulated not to sell any large snake unless the protential buyer has the permit already. permits also shouldn't be given out to just anybody asking for it. those who already own large snakes should be inspected, to ensure they have the cages and means to properly care for these snakes. being large, the snakes need more than one person around to properly handle them. a big strong guy may have no problems benching twice his weight in the gym but it's quite a different matter trying to lift a 100 pound burmese python that's ten feet long who isn't being cooperative. these snakes also need the proper environment, temps, climbing ledges, hiding places etc. and the owners need to be able to afford to feed and care for the animals.

regulating current and potential owners of large snakes, doesn't do squat about the current populations of large snakes and lizards already running loose in florida. a task force will be needed to round up all these 'illegal aliens' and either send them to proper homes or have them humanely euthanized. not a pleasant thought but it may be the only real solution. money can be raised to further the costs of rounding up the strays by selling the snakes to responsible owners, or selling the meat and skins to locals to eat and create snake skin products.

i feel the regulations would work better if applied at the breeder and petstore end, more than the end 'owner'. if petstores refuse to carry large snakes and lizards, or refuse to sell such animals to young people or impulse buying adults, it will go a long way to eliminate careless buyers from getting a cute pretty snake not realizing it can easily reach 20 feet or more and weight more than a full grown adult human. if petstore owners and employees take that extra step to ensure potential buyers are aware of the care requirements, potential expenses in housing and feeding their little reptile, as well as adult sizes, maybe more people will not impulse buy. sure the petstore will lose out on sales but in the end, animals won't be suffering dying due ot inappropriate care or being dumped by owners who don't wish to care for it and couldn't be bothered finding a new home for their unwanted pet.

irresponsible pet owners is not limitd to the reptile or exotic world. countless numbers of cats and dogs are dumped off on the outskirts of towns or cities. some just dropped off in another neighbourhood, with no considering on how that unwanted animal is to survive or the impact it wil have in later years. just like another poster mentioned, he saw a pack of stray dogs on the way home. stray dogs and cats can be a problem, being more feral they could attack children or other pets, carry diseases normally eliminated in pets with regular vacinations, often are half starved and suffering etc.

another point brought up is the only way to ensure a universal ban on all exotics isn't approved, is for the reptile/exotic community to actively campaign the merits of responsible pet keepers. the lack of care or abandonment of animals by irresponsible pet keepers is not limited to exotic pet keepers. most likely the same kind of people who dump unwanted exotics into the wilds of florida are the same kind of people who dump unwanted cats or dogs in farming communities, assuming farmers always want more dogs and cats to feed.

in the city i recently moved to, i recently learned that it was one or two local experts in reptiles who suggested and received changes in teh proposed ban on all exotic pets in the city area. through his actions the by laws were changed to exclude bans on many popular reptile pets, restricting the ban to more larger and potentially dangerous reptiles, instead of an all inclusive ban. thanks to the efforts of these people and the local reptile association, residents of this city can keep bearded dragons, ball pythons, rainbow boas, sand boas, and many other popular pets. though i am disappointed that he didn't fight for allowance for green iguanas, i certainly understand why he didn't. too often these pretty emerold green baby iguanas are killed by inproper care.

another t hing i am pleased about is alot of the local petstore employees are pretty knowledgeable about the reptiles they keep. none are perfect but many times while i was waiting to get crickets, frozen rodents or whatnot at the petstore, i listen to coversations between a petstore employee and a potential buyer of a pet. many times i heard the correct information being passed. it sometimes isn't 100 percent accurate but close enough that i know this new owner will be taking good care of the animals. recently a woman who recently bought a baby corn snake was given good advice on what size of rodent to feed it. the employee didn't mention the one and one half girth size as a way to determine sizes but did indicate that as the snake grow bigger it will take larger and larger sized mice then small rats. she also went further and suggested the customer pick up a copy of the corn snake manual [or similar corn snake care book] for further information as well as the internet. she also went on to explain the use of both dry and moist hides, showing a new product recently put out by one of the big reptile supply companies, which i didn't even know about. i checked it out later and it was actually a nice looking hide. looks much like rock with a hole in the top for small snakes to get in. it was also in two or three pieces so you can also use it as an egg laying bin as well.

in other petstores where i used to live, i have heard horrible suggestions for reptile care, often i would wait till the employee left and talked to the customer myself, mentioning additional information, without trying to make the employee look completely moronic.

the bottom line is, we should be trying to be as active as p ossible to educate our own communities. find the local reptile association and if there isn't any, maybe it's a good ideal to create one yourself. most petstores don't care if you adverfise a non profit type organization relating to educating people on reptiles and reptile care. once you have a group of people you can arrange to do presentations at schools, libraries and even at malls. get involved with events in the city or town as well. if your town council has meetings, go to them, especially if there is to be any discussion of new pet related bylaws. or just ask to bring it up sometime, that you and your friends would like gain support in educating people about proper care of lizards and and reptiles, both young and old and teaching people to understand how to choose what sort of pet is best for them, both in interest and ability to care for.

even talking with local petstore managers, not in a confrontational manner but maybe approach them as though you assume they know all about the reptiles they sell, whether you know if they do or not. invite them to meetings, or joining the reptile group you are part of or started. they may realize they don't know enough about reptiles or their head company, if a chain of petstores, may be unaware of new improve treatment and care methods for reptiles. big chain petstores may not spend much money and time researching new ways to care for the animals they sell, instead concentrating on better ways to market what they sell and what new products are out there for reptile and mammal care and food. since most petstores make th eir money off dog and cat products, the bigwigs in the company are probably spending the majority of their research in the big money making aspects. educating the local store manager may not affect the head honchos at main office, but it could be enough to see to it the animals sold at that particular store are cared for better and it's employees are more knowledgeable about the animals being sold, so can give on that care info to new owners.

wow long post, sorry for the length but felt i should express my thoughts.
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PHLdyPayne

"regulating current and potential owners of large snakes, doesn't do squat about the current populations of large snakes and lizards already running loose in florida. a task force will be needed to round up all these 'illegal aliens' and either send them to proper homes or have them humanely euthanized. not a pleasant thought but it may be the only real solution. money can be raised to further the costs of rounding up the strays by selling the snakes to responsible owners, or selling the meat and skins to locals to eat and create snake skin products.

i feel the regulations would work better if applied at the breeder and petstore end, more than the end 'owner'. if petstores refuse to carry large snakes and lizards, or refuse to sell such animals to young people or impulse buying adults, it will go a long way to eliminate careless buyers from getting a cute pretty snake not realizing it can easily reach 20 feet or more and weight more than a full grown adult human. if petstore owners and employees take that extra step to ensure potential buyers are aware of the care requirements, potential expenses in housing and feeding their little reptile, as well as adult sizes, maybe more people will not impulse buy. sure the petstore will lose out on sales but in the end, animals won't be suffering dying due ot inappropriate care or being dumped by owners who don't wish to care for it and couldn't be bothered finding a new home for their unwanted pet."

VERY WELL SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"a task force will be needed to round up all these 'illegal aliens'"

AS I see it that is the only way we can SLOW down there breeding in the wild! The catch, tag and release, thing they are doing now is the first step, after they learn where they are going, to eat, sleep, ect.., it will help with the "round up".
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I have been having debates with Gino Sassani of Lost World Reptiles about this for...well, almost a year now since he first found out they were attempting to do this. In that time, not a week goes by that I don't see an over-hyped story on tv or in a paper about an escaped/released snake, with info that is a total lie. Like the 6ft burm in a koi pond that a "reptile expert" deemed a lethal threat to the 8yr old on the property.

What it comes down to, is that the government is not, and will not, do it's job. It's supposed to protect the minority...which is us. However, through the media they've turned 90% of the state AGAINST snake possession. Till the story about the burm with the gator, and all the "backyard invasions", most people didn't really care about what we did. Now, they see us as a threat and want us stopped.

I whole-heartedly agree that new regulations should be passed, and they should include burms, retics, afrocks, amethystine, condas, and possibly some of the larger bcc (i.e. peruvian and suriname). However, I don't see this bill passing without an all-encompassing rule. It's going to end up, "all pythons and boas", which isn't going to help anything.

Also, if you make the ban something like $100/animal it's going to make things worse. What is the breeder in miami with 50 burms going to do? pay the $50,000/year? nope...dump um off in the glades. even a $100/animal one time fee is going to cause issues like this.

I think the best way to get things improved, is to require all exotic snakes to be registered, and a $100/year permit to keep an unlimited amount. You should have to agree to a random inspection by a FL wildlife officer if keeping a snake that can grow over 15ft, and any escaped animals should result in a HEFTY fine, something in the $500-2,000 area.
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Female Ball possibly gravid from 66% poss het axanthic
Trio black rat snakes placed together 12/14/05

Chris LaViola
CMLReptiles
Website under construction
CMLReptiles@aol.com

Enjoy yourself! Enjoy yourself! It's later than you think! The water is being slowly (?) warmed, and the frog is taking almost no notice of the temperature increase. Do you remember the days BEFORE the FL Venomous License? Later, it was just $5, no big deal.... But your name WAS on a list.... Now it's $100 per annum, plus 1000 hours of documented experience with each venomous Family, including opisthoglyphs.... Aaaaaahhhh, the Land of the Free...! The entire concept here is to be sure that we, the neighborhood circus sideshow freaks, the lovers of the extraordinary and the fantastic, are carefully forced into oblivion, into the state of eligibility for arrest, fines, and incarceration, into nonexistence. You don't believe me? Check with your local chpter of HSUS, or with PETA, and see. I hope that you've enjoyed our poikilothermic friends as much as I have, because if we don't make like the NRA, we are going the way of all the animal life that humans have exterminated through the ages. It has been fun, though....
bye.

Sounds good to me. I have long said that no exotic animals should be kept in areas where they could survive if they escaped or were released. Despite out best efforts, exotic animals escape sometimes. The likelihood of them doing damage to the native ecosystem is greatly reduced if it happens in a climate where they cannot survive. I would even go so far as to say the it should be illegal to own exotic pets in areas like S. Florida and parts of Texas.

so with that theory, cats and dogs should be illegal everywhere, right? Feral cats/dogs do more harm to the surrounding ecosystem than any python/boa could dream of doing. When everyone is forced to give up their beloved golden retriever, that is when I'll get rid of my snakes. BTW this freaky cold snap we are getting tonight will take care of a good portion of these burms/retics in the glades. They are calling for temps to be in the low 30's over most the area with some spots actually getting into the 20's, it's getting cold in south florida this week.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

No, I don't think that the same rules should apply to domesticated animals. Maybe for cats, but I think that cats and dogs should be neutered and cats kept as indoor animals only. Cat and dog breeding should be limited to only licensed breeders. Dog and cat owners should be held accountable for their pets and fines and penalties should be steep. Also, in N. America at least, feline and canine predators are part of the natural ecosystem, and most of our native species have adaptations that help to defend against them. Feral cats and dogs are really more of a problem for places where there are no ground based predators, such as islands.

I do think that cats and dogs should not be as prevalent as they are. I also think that not just anybody should be able to own cats and dogs. Cats and dogs are often kept but not properly cared for. Abuse and neglect are rampant. Dog and cat breeds are becoming degenerate because of poor and casual breeding practices. In short, domesticated pets should be resticted and regulated more than they are.

well it's a good thing we don't live in the land of the free. I can do this but you can't. I can do this because I have connections and paid someone off for the permits but you don't know them or don't have the money to pay them off so you can't. Sounds alot like the old Soviet Union. BTW that idea didn't work out if you didn't know already, lol. Putting all out bans on any activity that does not infringe on the rights of others is unconstitutional in principle. Holding people resoponsible for their actions on the other hand is the American way. Requiring a permit and fines for not adhering to the set laws is the only way both sides will ever be able to work together.

Josh Hutto
JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Living in the land of the free doesn't give you the ability to do anything you want to do. Keeping animals is a privelege not a right. I don't see anything wrong with limiting people's access to animals. Part of living in a free society is being responsable for your own actions. Unfortunately, we are not policing ourselves so laws will be passed to make us do what needs to be done. If we could all get past our own selfish desires and think of the greater good sometimes then we wouldn't need any restrictive laws. I don't propose a total ban throughout the whole country, just in areas of special consideration. If you are dedicated to keeping exotic animals, then move to an area where if they escape, they will not survive.

Personally I wouldn't have an issue with paying $100 for a license to keep certain types of reptiles. I'm a BP lover myself, and although I don't believe that they belong in the same category as snakes such as burms and retics as far as being dangerous, I'd love the opportunity to get a license. I kept a large (5 1/2 foot) BP for several years and had to watch who I mentioned it to because all boids are illegal in my town (We rescued her from a previous owner, so please no posts about how irresponsible I was to flaunt the law . It would have made my day to be able to pay $100 for the right to keep her legally, and if the money goes towards helping out other animals, so much the better. The real problem, which has already been mentioned, is the pet stores which insist on selling anything from a hatchling iguana to a baby burmese python to anyone, adult or not, who has the cash to drop. We're lucky in that we've got some pretty good pet stores in town, stores that make sure you know what you're buying and how to look after it before they take your money (One store in particular recently decided not to sell an adult cockatoo which they probably could have gotten $3000 CDN for because they didn't think they could find someone who could give the bird the attention it needed after spending time in a pet store with people paying attention to it all day. He's now a very popular and happy store pet.) I for one feel that there should be a full size, 6 foot model of an iguana beside every cage full of hatchlings, with a big sign that says 'Same lizard 3 years from now'. I think what it comes down to is that people who do the proper research on a species before obtaining one don't end up with an animal 10 times larger than they expected, so are better prepared for the responsibility. If we feel the need to regulate owners of certain animals, why don't we require people to do that research rather than start banning animals. That way, the animals benefit by going to people who are willing and able to give them proper care throughout their natural lifespan, and we benefit by not having to read in the paper every now and then how some idiot got hurt by the huge snake, or lizard, or dog... that he had no business having in the first place... Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of living in a town where you can't legally own a damn ferret, pit pull, boid or anything else that our council considers exotic...

I agree to using a full size model. Another idea would be to have a full size picture or cardboard cut-out of iguanas and big pythons/boas/anacondas. This could just be stuck up on the wall above the cages with the "Same animal-three years later" message. This way, employees can't just tell a customer a lie about how big the animal will really get in order to sell the animal and get a big commission.

i think thats a good idea because people need to take into consideration how large these beutiful animals can actually get to be.