Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am considering a trade for an Eastern Indigo. There would be no money changing hands, but it would be snake for snake. Would I still need to apply for a federal permit? I don't want to risk anything illegal, especially after seeing what can happen to folks that break the law(re: reptiles magazine post) Thanks,
John

From what I understand, YES, you would still need an interstate commerce permit from USFW. If you have any doubts, I would recommend contacting Victoria Davis to get a clarification. You are right, you do NOT want to break a law and ignorance will not be held in any less regard by the feds. If you don't have Victoria's contact info, you can go to Doug Taylor's website, www.indigosnakes.com and find her number there.

>>I am considering a trade for an Eastern Indigo. There would be no money changing hands, but it would be snake for snake. Would I still need to apply for a federal permit? I don't want to risk anything illegal, especially after seeing what can happen to folks that break the law(re: reptiles magazine post) Thanks,
>>John
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Unless the trade is to take place within your state of residence, meaning the indigo will not be crossing state lines, you will be required to garner a USF&W interstate commerce permit.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

If there is no money, barter, or trade (i.e. a gift with no strings attached), then the Interstate Commerce license is not needed. I actually spoke to USFW last week with that specific question. She tried to give me the link to the actual code so that I could have it on file, but I could not track it down.

B W Smith
www.reptileeducation.com

I hit SUBMIT too soon. I meant to add that since it is snake for snake, it is a barter and the permit is required. I would highly recommend not trying to get around the permit.

BW

www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/permits.pdf

Look under the paragraph entitled "Loans and Gifts", though anyone working with D. couperi should have some level of familiarity with all of the material listed within...

Best regards,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I needed that to add to my documentation.

B W Smith

N/P
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Thanks everyone. That actually helped me make up my mind. I wasn't sure if the trade would be best for me in the first place, so this helped me make up my mind.

Indigos are an absolute joy to keep and are worth the extra effort sometimes required to acquire them. Don't let a small issue, such as the permit process, steer you away from acquiring one, as the process is quite simple...

Good luck,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I second Jeffs Statement: Eastern Indigos ARE wonderfull snakes to work with, and the permit process, although seemingly difficult , is actually REALLY simple. If the main thing that dissuades you is the permit, please know that EVERYONE that has bought these from out of state parties has had to go through this. Its worth it. Yes, its a hassle, but it is well worth it in the long run and allows you to LEGALLY keep undeniably hands-down one of the finest serpents in this country of ours.

Best of luck!

Fred Albury

If you don't have the hassle of state permits, the trasport ones are supposed to be simple, just takes a while to get from talking to USFW. I am still waiting for my final paperwork to get here from the state.

BW

I don't mind the permit for the snake, but I don't think the guy will wait to trade it to me till I get a permit. He didn't seem to know that I needed one, so it kind of made me question whether I should do the deal anyway. My plan for an Eastern is to buy one from Dean when he has hatchlings since he is in my state (Ohio)

In state or directly from a breeder are the two best ways to acquire an indigo. It's good to see you are lucky enough to do both!
You can't go wrong with one of Dean's Indigos either!

Good luck,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Dean is one of the few good things about being an Ohioan.

John
You sent me a photo of you holding a large male Eastern.
I assumed you wanted a mate for him and already had permits.
I would NEVER do any shadey deals!
Mike

First, you cannot acquire an interstate commerce permit without first obtaining and submitting a statement, from the breeder / owner, with your application, as the permits are specimen specific, not species specific.
Second, and I could be going out on a limb here, but isn't this particular female believed to be a dwarf? Forgive me if I am wrong, but I recall Mike making a post to this regard a short time ago and I harbor grave concerns regarding such a specimen producing offspring, which may later trickle down to the mainstream. Of course, I highly suspect a dwarf female would perish attempting to pass a clucth of eggs, though if for some chance oviposition was successful and the eggs fertile. Well that's just a mess I don't even wish to think about.
I believe Drymarchon exhibiting dwarfism make great pets and educational specimens, but I do not believe any responsible herpetoculturist would attempt breeding such an animal...

Jeff

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

This female was NEVER intended to be bred, not by me or the previous owner! Your right she is a GREAT educational tool as well as a GREAT PET!
I hate to sell her but I don't think she will go over well in FL.
Mike

Thanks, Mike,

Glad to hear you chime in to that regard.
I seriously doubt such a female would survive oviposition anyhow and it would be a crying shame to put her through such an ordeal.
By the way, saw your recent post and was happy to see the the amended comments...

Take care,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I have seen what a normal female goes through while laying her eggs, with this first hand expirence I know she would not survive.
There are still knuckle heads out there that would attempt breeding her.
So you think this is genetic, I have been told it is environmental not genetics.
Doesn't matter either way for me I would never use her to breed.
Mike

Is there a way to make her sterile with out too much hastle?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Never introduce her to a male.
I don't want to sound sarcastic but this is a sure fire way!
Mike

Actualy there are instances of snakes that have never been exposed to a male that have layed fertile eggs but it would be a first for the Indigo. I thought you were selling her my mistake.............Bill
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Bill
After thinking about you last post a bit I realized your concern would be with the buyer.
I tell every potential buyer that breeding her would be a death sentence!
We can only hope she lands in the right hands!
If I even smell a rat, the deals over!!
If I can't sell her before I move I will leave her here in IL. with my Daughter.
Mike

Dwarfism is known to be caused by a variety of factors, so one can say, with any degree of certainty, whether or not such an anomaly was caused by an environmental or genetic event. There is always the possibility of the trait being of genetic origin, so why chance breeding specimens harboring the anomaly, as they tend to be far and few between.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Mike,
Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything. The male I was holding is Dean's male that I held at the Cincy Herp Society meeting. I don't have a permit and have never had one. That's why I thought it wouldn't work out.

John

John
I saw that BIG male and just thought you would be looking to breed him.
You don't need to appologize.
And just one question, why is there an Army guy guarding the door in that photo?
Must be a ruff joint! LOL.
Mike