Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hay gang, big Tom again. I was looking this up, and I gave up. I figured I'd get more help here.

UVB is 280-320 Nm, I know that. Bulbs read 2, 3, 5, 8, 10% and maybe others. What is the percent in reference to?

1 total out put of the bulb of lumens?
2 total percent of some standard based on sunlight?

The reason I ask this is, our bulbs are all the same price 18" to 48". If 5% is of total light, obviously a 48" bulb is going to give a ton more than a 18" bulb.

Also if on total light, one brand at 3% might! give off more UVB than another brand at 5% if the 3% bulb gives off more total lumens? The 3% would have to give off 40% more total light, and I'll agree not lightly (pun) boooo,,,

OK I think you get my point on the %'s on the bulbs

p.s. if you are making a LARGE setup, look at suntan bed bulbs, they are much cheaper. But all 8' and I AM NOT sure on quality for herps. But it could be a huge savings if your using a lot.

Not herp related but please meet a few new buddies

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1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

I thought I'd try to prime the pump.
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Matt is the best to answer this, but...

UVB is 280-320 Nm, I know that. Bulbs read 2, 3, 5, 8, 10% and maybe others. What is the percent in reference to?

1 total out put of the bulb of lumens?
2 total percent of some standard based on sunlight?

I don't think it's #1 since lumens apply to VISIBLE (to humans) light only. UVB is not visible light.

I also don't think it's #2.

The reason I ask this is, our bulbs are all the same price 18" to 48". If 5% is of total light, obviously a 48" bulb is going to give a ton more than a 18" bulb.

Not necessarily as there is a non-linear relationship between wattage and light intensity, including the invisible spectra.

I think what ultimately matters is UV output as measured in microwatts/centimeter_squared. Even then one light may have a high output but still lag behind a "weaker" bulb that maybe is stronger in the specific wavelengths that stimulate the cutaneal conversion of vitamin D compounds.

Okay, I'm out. I'll email Matt and get him to reply.

I totally agree total UVB out put is most important. That why I was asking. I personally try to sell people a 48" bulb, as it is the same price as a 18", and tell them to go to lowes home depot and get a shop fixture and a UVA plant bulb. I try to talk them OUT of a sale on 2 items. 95% buy a slim line fixture and bulb! SIGH.

This is really for my own info. I get yelled at talking about 280 nm, and spectrums, and god forbid I add in "output as measured in microwatts/centimeter_squared" or even non linear.

I was at one time a math major, years ago, so I get it. Love to work my few brain cells, but the main customer base is confused on heat vs UV anything, and red is alwasy infra-red.

If I can not educated the masses, I try to educate myself.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I hear ya. I use 48" bulbs simply because the fixtures are cheaper and they spread the lighter out over a greater area.

However, ballast quality has a significant effect on UV output. Cheap shop lights don't do the best job, although they can be rewired with a better ballast easy enough and still save money.

Regardless, I switched to mercury vapor for no reason other than my wife's bearded dragon looks and behaves better underneath them.

Chris, Do you use stock MV or herp MV? I know monitor people that use regular stock MV for monitors with good results.

All I have left that needed UVB is my 1.3 beardies. I'd like to expand my collection in time, but I need to build a cage system. I've aften thought about using stock UVB just so I can get teh bulbs cheap, and just down the street.

Thanks in advance

-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I have not experimented with standard MV bulbs. They have glass filters specifically designed to reduce UV transmission so I have just used the reptile products. The standard ones are VERY bright so I can see why diurnal lizards would still benefit.

>>Chris, Do you use stock MV or herp MV? I know monitor people that use regular stock MV for monitors with good results.
>>
>>All I have left that needed UVB is my 1.3 beardies. I'd like to expand my collection in time, but I need to build a cage system. I've aften thought about using stock UVB just so I can get teh bulbs cheap, and just down the street.
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)
>>
>>AOL IM Mettzilla
>>I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS
>>
>>1.3 Bearded Dragons
>>6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
>>1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
>>1 baby creamcycle 0.1
>>Degus
>>2.0 Dogs,
>>0.2 Cats,,
>>0.1 Wives,
>>1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
>>-----
>>tom
>>
>>
>>www.herpzilla.com

Thanks, I can scratch at least 1 items. That can mean a lot. We have a local companiy that we use to get UVB bulbs from in bulk. I think I can get 8% for $8 for 48"s. I can not see a bulb ging bad over a few years on a shelf. I know they are almost out.

Do I buy their last 20 or so and plan a cage system around them, or go MV?

Or move out of Ohio, go way south and just keep them outside?
The old bolted up back would like that.

thanks again.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

1)Get a UV meter and ask the company if you can test a few. A UV meter is not a bad idea if you keep a lot of lizards that require it.

2) Build your caging system so it can take either 48" fluorescent bulbs or MVB's.

3) Build some cheap outdoor cages that will allow at least a few hours outside during the summer. Although if you still live in Cleveland there won't be much of that. I'm in the Black Hills of South Dakota now and it is remarkable how much more sun we get than Cleveland.

I would love a UV meter. Not a cheap item. Especially for a good one. We thougth about 1 for the shop, charge $5 to check your bulbs, if you buy a bulb the charge is used towards a bulb.

But would love one. Love tools, love gadgets.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Tom,
You've got it right about the wavelength at which UVB occurs. However, the 3,5,8 whatever percent listed is all marketing bunk. For instance - one test that was done showed that the Exoterra 8.0 did not in fact radiate as much UVB as the ZooMed Reptisun 5.0. At the zoo I work at, a study was done to test among other things degradation over time of UV output of UV bulbs. One way to test that besides the use of a UVB meter was to test the amount of D3 conversion going on and whether it increased, decreased, or stayed the same over the life of the bulb. The study is probably at least a year out from being published [probably more] so I'll give you my very unofficial and completely unscientific impressions given the data [which I may or may not be interpreting properly since I'm not a statistician]. Okay, basically the best bulb out there is still the ZooMed Reptisun 5.0. Incidentally the Iguanalight 5.0 is the same thing with a different package [marketing again]. Based on some other papers that came out in the last few years I would steer away from ESU and Exoterra bulbs as they don't seem to have favorable outputs for UVB. We did test MV UVB bulbs and of those we tested the ZooMed Powersun and the Westron/T-Rex/Active UV Heat. The ZooMed Powersun appears to only convert as much D3 as the Reptisun 5.0 albeit at much farther distances [up to 5 feet away from surface of bulb vs. 18 inches for Reptisun 5.0]. The T-Rex bulbs [spot and flood] did seem to have a higher D3 conversion than the Powersun. Interestingly it looks like you get higher conversion from flood rather than spots. The real surprise though was that another fluorescent bulb we use - the Sylvania 350BL Blacklight - had a higher conversion than the Reptisun 5.0. So, take this altogether and what do you get? A bunch of numbers and statistics that are essentially useless given that we don't even know what blood circulating D3 levels are in wild animals. Sure we can put a lizard under a UV bulb and test his blood before and after and maybe see an increase in the circulating D3 levels, but we still don't know if that's good? better? too much? Until someone does studies on wild animals we won't know whether a Reptisun 5.0 is adequate or do we need something higher? For my money I'd stick with Reptisuns and forget the rest. If you absolutely need a MV UV bulb for a species that requires lots of UV [ie. igs and beardies] go with a T-Rex or a bulb from ReptileUV.com [his bulbs are Westrons just like the T-Rex bulbs]. Now, if you really want to start splitting hairs, then we could talk about possible lumen, CRI, and color temperature differences between 24, 36, and 48 inch bulbs. But that's even getting into headache territory for me. Finally let me make one last point - if you put in a Reptisun 5.0 [assuming a two-bulb fixture] use a full-spectrum daylight bulb in the open side of the fixture - there are good bulbs made by GE, FEIT, and Sylvania. Mainly you want something with a much brighter, whiter light to balance out the bluish cast you'll get from the UV bulbs. It'll help keep your animals and cage furnishing looking more normally colored. Wheew!!! Hope this helps!
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977

OK Matt take a big breath. That was worth the wait.
I just had a Zoo-Med in the store about 2 weeks ago. He was trying to talk in very basic concepts. After 30 seconds we got into a 30 minute convo on UVA UVB and UVC, as he said 1 bulb on the market was found to have an envelop problem and leaking UVC.

Your synopsis was outstanding. And my view for the most part. I had found some list of comparisons of lights, 6" 12" 24" etc. WITH a meter. One of the highest priced bulbs was the worst. I need to find that.

I knew about ZM's 2 bulbs being the same. And that is our main bulb now. We use to carry "Reptile D lights" local supplier, and they were a great price, and one of our cham breeders used them, so the idea was, good for sensitive chams, they had to be pretty good. All they have left is 4' bulbs at 8%. I may buy them out for my stuff til I pass this greenish planet.

As for the 2 bulb combo. I have always read about UVA being important and "psychologically stimulating to appetite".

That's why I promote that combo. As for my Beardies, they are all adults, and kind of in a winter phase. Shorter light, a bit less heat. In fact, last week I added 1 hour to the timer.

I always have used a very clear bright halogen bulb for spots, with the 2 UVA UVB combo. More in the past for Jackson Chams, but I did not have great success in raising the babies so I stopped.

Anyway, a bit off the topic, I think I need to start saving for a meter. Whets your idea of best bang for the buck. I can make a setup at the shop to test bulbs of various sizes. Probably charge $5 like I said, pay for it in a year or so. Apply that cost to a bulb of course. My own sales hype lol.

You are a man of knowledge. Some day I would like to actually chat. Forums are nice, but not the same.

Thanks again.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Tom,

As for the UVB meter - the one we used was the Solarmeter [don't remember model number] and it cost about $149 or so. Remember a meter isn't going to tell you anything more than when your bulb starts to drop off in UVB output. There's even a UVB meter group on Yahoo dedicated to this meter. The thing is as all these people are posting data on their own readings and readings of UVB outdoors all over the world it still doesn't make any difference without knowing what passes for normal blood circulating D3 levels. Your comment about UVC is also something to consider. With so many cheapo brands of bulbs out there, there have to be some that are dangerous because of poor design. I don't know who it was that mentioned tan-spa bulbs but those need to be steered well away from! Someone did a UVB vs. dietary D3 supplementation in Green Igs and the UV bulb they used was in fact a tan-spa bulb. They had this bulb on for something like 8 hours a day or something and within the first few weeks of the study two igs turned black and died, so they scaled back the amount of time the igs were exposed to the bulb to something like 1 or 2 hours. Stick with bulbs used for reptiles would be my advice to anyone and use only well-known name brands. There's some magic fluorescent light being peddled by Big Apple Herp and that thing scares me. Any bulb that claims to provide the total necessary UV in just two hours has got to be dangerous. You know some idiot is just going to say, 'Hey, if it's good for two hours, why don't I use it all day and it'll be even better!' Of course then his animal turns black and dies and he wonders why.
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977

Not exactly UV related, but LIGHT INTENSITY. Light intensity is a whole new area that needs to be explored. You mentioned UVA and besides the basics of appetite stimulation and such there's some research that now indicates that photoperiod and intensity of light may have far more impact on breeding species than cooling periods. It may be that the lengthy and very subtle changes in day length and intensity of light are far more important and that lizards, snakes, frogs, etc. may be much more attuned to this environmental factor than previously thought. So, I definetely think light intensity and UVA are of paramount importance. I'm going to be building a new bunch of cages for a lot of my snakes and I'm going to be incorporating UVA/UVB lighting into all the new cages because I think even though a lot of people say snakes don't need UV, I think this new research may indicate that it's more important than previously thought - also it certainly can't hurt.
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977

Interesting. I'd like to hear your thoughts on adding UV's for snakes.

Also I thought that chart on Melissas site looked old. I deeply appreciate the exact info. But those reptile d-lights seem like they were good, I need to hammer the local uri lighting to find all his old stock. 10-20 bulbs would last a long time for my beardies.

I do not see an unused bulb going bad? I guess gases could break down in some way? But for my cost I can not pass them up.

I got out of Jackson chams since I had bad luck with babies, and traded Jax for beardies. I am a lizard guy deep inside. Those guys are so easy to care for. My 1.3 eat everything. Best common type lizard for avg new herper. And a fun booger for a guy thats had a lot of stuff too.

2 day old Jax, live birth is so cool to watch. But baby Jaxs are just tough to raise. I was not good enough, so I stopped. Maybe again 1 day? Jax are still my #1 lizard

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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com