Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This question has probably been asked and answered before but I was unable to find an answer. I am building a 6'x2'1/2"x2 melamin cage for my burm. I am also having a tin "tray" with a 2" lip made to sit inside on the bottom of the cage (if the burm's urates can eat though that I'm in trouble). The tray should allow for easy clean up as well as a great medium to disburse heat. I had orginally planned on using either radiant heat panels or heat tape underneath the tin tray in between it and the cage floor. My question is which would be better to use, radian heat panels or heat tape? I have also read that the best use of radiant heat panels is to attach them to the ceiling. So now I'm a little confused as to which would be the better heating solution. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I would vote for a RHP for a cage that large. My concern with heat sources underneath is that the tin will act as a radiant barrier if there is any air space at all. I see this as a potentially dangerous situation, although maybe you have a solution for this.

How are you going to prevent moisture and/or urates from getting inbetween the tin tray and the melamine floor? I like the idea of using something durable for the floor and first few inches of the cage walls, but I think you're better off if it's completely sealed off.

>I would vote for a RHP for a cage that large.
RHP attached to the ceiling or underneath?

>My concern with heat sources underneath is that the tin will act as a radiant barrier if there is any air space at all.
What do you mean by "radiant barrier"? My thought was that the the RHP would be sandwiched betweent the cage floor and the tin tray with no airspace inbetween. The RHP would heat up the tin tray which would inturn radiate the heat throughout the cage.

>I see this as a potentially dangerous situation, although maybe you have a solution for this.
If I choose RHP sandwiched between the tin tray and cage floor, do I need to provide a gap for airflow for safety?

>How are you going to prevent moisture and/or urates from getting inbetween the tin tray and the melamine floor?
The tin tray will be made to fit exactly the area of the cage floor from wall to wall to wall to wall, you will not even be able to see the cage floor. The side corners of the tray will either be welded or soldered together to make a water tight tray capable of holding a couple of gallons of water (think of a giant cookie sheet)

Your reply and insight are greatly appreciated.
thanks

RHP attached to the ceiling or underneath?

Attached to the ceiling, no doubt. Before I go any further, why are you considering putting it elsewhere?

What do you mean by "radiant barrier"? My thought was that the the RHP would be sandwiched betweent the cage floor and the tin tray with no airspace inbetween. The RHP would heat up the tin tray which would inturn radiate the heat throughout the cage.

Radiant Heat Panels produce radiant heat. Metal blocks radiant heat, which is why fire fighters can cover themselves with a thin foil blanket and protect themselves from several hundred degree temperatures.

Heat tape also produces radiant heat which can be partially blocked by the tin. This can severely shorten the life of the heating element and create a dangerous situation.

If I choose RHP sandwiched between the tin tray and cage floor, do I need to provide a gap for airflow for safety?

I don't see this as being a safe situation regardless.

I still don't understand how you will prevent moisture from getting inbetween the 2" lip of the tin try and the melamine sides. If you do this include some sort of viscous adhesive that will bond to both tin and melamine. Off the top of my head I don't know what will work for sure.

Mybe Im getting RHP and Ultratherm Heat Pads confused. Are they 2 different types products? I have seen Ultratherms (which i thought were RHPs) attached to the underside to glass aquariums and melamine cages. I thought if a Heat Pad was attached to the tin tray, it would heat the tray up which would inturn heat up the cage. I do not want to attach the tray to the cage in any way b/c that would defeat the main purpose of the tray. I want to be able to pull the tray out to clean it. Since the tray will be water tight no urates will come in contact with the melamine. As for other moisture getting between the sides of the tray and the melamine walls, i think i will be ok since i will be pulling out the tray on a regular basis and at such time i can wipe down the insides of the cage.
thanks again

I'm a bit worried about the removable tin tray, but it sounds like you have a plan.

Mybe Im getting RHP and Ultratherm Heat Pads confused. Are they 2 different types products? I have seen Ultratherms (which i thought were RHPs) attached to the underside to glass aquariums and melamine cages.

They are different, but only by a few key characteristics. Ultratherms are a packaged heat tape of sorts and are designed to go underneath cages.

RHP's are basically a heat source with a radiant barrier layer of insulation designed to direct heat downwards (and therefore, be mounted on the ceiling of a cage).

For a large cage RHP's are superior, IMO. With your desire to have a tin tray in the cage I think a RHP is a much better choice.

I thought if a Heat Pad was attached to the tin tray, it would heat the tray up which would inturn heat up the cage.

Well it would, but even the slightest air space could cause problems. I don't know just how bad. Given tin's tendency to warp, especially when exposed to heat, I'd be worried about this.

Also, tin can corrode when exposed to urine. A burmese's urates could be especially caustic. Maybe check over on the burmese forum if you have not already.

I think you are right, in that ceiling mounted RHP are the way to go.

>Also, tin can corrode when exposed to urine. A burmese's urates could be especially caustic.
Is there anything I could use to "coat" or "seal" the tin tray with to protect it?

The reason I'm so adament about using a tray is for ease of clean up. When it gets dirty I can pull it out and clean it either in the shower or outside with a hose. It will, I think, also protect the cage from comming in contact with my burms urate, thus making it last longer. And finally if the tray get ruined i just make a new tray and slide it in without having to build a whole new cage.

once again,
thanks

I don't know what tin could be coated with. Maybe two-part automotive polyurethane. You'd have to find a shop to spray it on.

If I were making a removable tray I'd use expanded PVC HDPe or another plastic held together with plastic corner angle.

Lighter, more durable, easier to clean and more likely to stay flat.

Another couple of thoughts.

Whatever tray you use, if it fits tight, it will have to be removed through a slot in the cage. Most likely in the front. Maybe hidden behind a drop down door? Since you already would have to slide the tray in and out through a slot, you could make the cage and it's corresponding hole/slot slightly larger than the inside dimmensions of the cage. Such that the interior walls hang over the tray. That way any "drips" from the wall would go into the tray. Maybe even go so far as to make a slight undercut to the walls so any drips could not travel along the horizontal surface?

In my experience with snakes smaller than burms, they seem to love dropping their load in a corner and/or up against the wall. Might even be worth thinking of making the tray even taller. Tall enough so that the largest "pile" would still be lower than the tray.

Don't know, just thoughts.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
4.12 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

_____

sig file edited, contact an admin. 2/13/06

I couldn't have said it better myself. Personally I think this tray is a bad idea. I have kept a large Burmese and let me tell you if its in the cage it will probably get deficated on. The tray would have to be almost the height of the cage itself which defeats the purpose.

Line the sides and bottom with PVCX and seal the interior use a Radient Heat Panel cause nothing beats what they are worth. And get ready to build another cage. Burmese grow fast I sold mine at a little over 10' and 55pds and she was small for a 2 1/2 year old. Personally I like Chris is 2 part design idea, I had the same but he sells it better.

Good Luck
Jeremy
-----
"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow Red Tailed Boas -Coming Soon-
0.1 Albino Red Tailed Boa -Coming Soon-
1.1 Hypomelenistic Red Tailed Boas
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino Red Tailed Boas
0.1 Suriname Red Tailed Boa
0.1 Anerthrystic Red Tailed Boa
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse

PVCX and Expanded PVC, are they same thing? Where can I purchase these items and the plastic corner angle? Are they sold at local hardware stores like Home Depot, Lowes or Menards or do they need to be ordered online?
thanks for all the inputs

PVCX is herp-jargon for expanded PVC. Don't say PVCX when looking for it, us snake people are the only ones who use it.

Instead, ask for Sintra or expanded PVC.

First look for plastic distributors in the phone book. If none of those are available try sign shops instead. Sign shops tend to refer to all expanded PVC's as Sintra, even if they carry another product.

Ordering online is very expensive. I would go to plan C if I could not find it local.

Plastic corner angle is a bit more reasonable to ship. I think Total Plastics has it pretty cheap.

BTW, Rainbows and Bighurt have offered some good advice with a bit more first hand experience. Those guys really know their stuff when it comes to caging.