Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i just need the back wall (mdf melamine) and the heating element cover that i may get from methistina (b.o.a inc.) after i figure out fan placement any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated

it holds 3 12qt sterilite containers side by side with leeway room for airflow
and it should be at least 4 levels high

it uses 2 42w little giant incubator heating elements
herpstat thermostat

for an incubator that size? They look like the ones used by the small hovabators. I would put a fan on the left or right-hand side near the top-middle pushing the hot air that has risen, down. I would also:

1) Make it a temporary placement so you can try different spots.
2) Test it with tubs that at least have water in them to simulate a real clutch.

Looks nice!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

im hoping that they will be enough i was going to use the 3rd one but someone said (previous past post) godforbid the thermostat fails i wouldnt want to cook the eggs also that he only uses 2 heating elements and he said he has a large upright freezer w/more cu.ft. i was thinking about placing the 3rd heating element on top to help with the fluctuation but once i get it all plugged up and finished ill take it for a test run and see if i have to use the top one or not or rearrange the bottom ones to fit a 3rd heating element and putting tubs in there is definitly good advice this year ill hopefully be working with 3 clutches what do u recommend

the internal dimensions are 36"w x 38"h x 21"d

Also, I would recommend you get it up and running for at least 15 days so that you can get it "dialed" in. Treat it just as you would throughout the season - open the door once per week, etc. Also keep in mind that though you open the outside door the inner chambers - egg boxes - will normally show less temp drop, so ensure your probe is placed in a safe place. If your eggs are at 90 degrees but the probe is reading the open air and you open the door, you can quickly cook your eggs.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

in the last incubator i made i placed the actual tub in the middle of the incubator and placed the probe directly in the tub itself and it stayed 89.5 with after all my minor 1/10 degree adjustments if i do end up with 3 clutches ill do the same in the middle tub and have 3 seperate thermometer (same kind for accuracy integrity)in the 3 tubs the 3 tubs will be side by side

as far as the heating elements how many do you think i should use

>>as far as the heating elements how many do you think i should use

That's hard to say. I know that those heating elements are normally designed to heat a very small area. Your incubator is much larger than a hovabator. You could just start with the two to see how much they struggle, if at all. If they stay on most of the time, I'd say you need more heat. Personally, I would use 11" Flexwatt. The key is to maintain heat in "blips". In that way you don't get the extreme localized heat. Instead, you want a steady flow of heat that is managable and even. I think it's going to take some tinkering with your new incubator. So you better get moving since eggs are soon to come! My fingers are crossed for you.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I have the thermostat set up for proportional mode so it will give the blips i think if the eggs are closer to the heating elements it wont be a problem for probably up to 6 clutches now after 6 id probably need that extra heating element the original 2 heated a standard size apartment size refridgerator minus the freezer area and it heated that space with no problem im gonna go get the sq in area of the old incubator and compare it to the new one because you may very well be right

if my calculations are correct the new incubators internal area is 28728 cu.in. the old 1 is 23625 cu. in. leaving a difference of 5103 cu. in. now in the old inc i never used a fan in this one id obviously have to, will 2 decent mini high velocity fans help the heaters heat up that extra 5100 cu in and move enough air also would it be better to let them run continuously or to hook them up to the thermostat and let them pulselike with the heat

Not sure. I guess you'll have to do some testing.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

All my Incubators are built with upright freezers and I always connect to Fan(s) to the helix(Or other thermostat) itself. That way the fan only runs if the heat needs to be moved. I have always been afraid that the fan will generate HEAT that would NOT be regulated by the Helix(Or Other thermostat) that could COOK the Eggs. That is why I would have the fas coming from the Thermostat and let it control your fan and heat elements. hope this helps.
Thanks
David
Snakebstr's Reptile House

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

If you only run a fan when the heat comes on the air can become stagnant which can also create dead areas. If you use a small fan and let it run gently the air circulation helps to evenly distribute the heat. The best way to do it is experiment. Also I wouldn't hook up a fan to a proportional t'stat, it will burn the motor prematurely. Hope this helps.
Wil Combs
Captive Bred Creations

hot air rises so if the fans are off, you can get warm air at the top, about the probe where eggs are heated too much, and eggs below, heated too little.

The fans used by computers generate virtually no heat. And I'm not sure, but some electrical devices are rated to run at a certain power feed. You might check on the fans.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Jay, The fans I use do put out HEAT, with my incubators set between 89-90 the fans were putting out around 97-98 degrees when temp gun was pointed at them and the fans were running when this test was done, I took my Raytek temp gun with the red laser site and put it right on the fans motor and it read 98. Now I know in a large space like a refridge the fan couldn't hold the temps that high(98), but you might get a few degrees above 89 since the helix or other thermostat regulates the heat source up to 89-90, That is why I prefer to hook the fan into the Thermostat, Because with the fan running all of the time from its own power supply in COULD raise the temps, I am not saying that it will but I would rather not take that risk with 10,000's of dollars worth of eggs. But anyway these are just my opinions and I have had good luck with my hatching ball pythons in MY style Incubators.

Gravid Female Below from last season 12 out of 12 hatched, Due again anyday

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

My generic computer fans generate virtually no heat. But other fans... Also, if they are heating up the incubator, unless they can heat the whole incubator to 89 degrees by themselves, it would not be an issue. The important thing is to evaluate how much of a difference it makes and make adjustments from there. Especially since this is a new incubator.

One concern I have with running the fans off a proportional controller is if they don't get enough power to circulate adequate air. My controllers "trickle" power to my incubators. Therefore, the CFM of the fan would never be achieved. It would run too slow to adequately circulate the air. You might be better off putting the fans (only) on an on/off controller.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

If you don't have a regulation on the fans heat output then that COULD cause the Incubators temps to be increased without being regulated by the Thermostat, Right? Also I think that moving the air all the time in the incubator will cause your vermiculite mixture to dry out quicker and could cause the eggs to dent faster. In my incubator the fan never really turns off totally it just slows down as the temp reaches the 89-90 degrees, and the moves more air when/if it reaches a lower temp of 87-88 or lower when the door is opened to check on the eggs but once the door is closed it takes a few seconds to go back to the 89-90. The system I use seems to work fine. I hatched out several clutches of eggs last season and the season before. Also I just did a check on the FAN MOTOR of my Incubator and with the helix set on 89 on the first and 90 on the second incubator the Fan motor when temped with a Raytek temp gun the temp of the motor was 98 in Both incubators, So fans could raise the temps in my opinion. These are just my thoughts on incubators. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Yes a fan could cause an incubator to heat up more if the fan gives off a lot of BTU's, that is why you size the fan to the incubator. If you use a little computer fan for a smaller incubator the fan is not going to add very many BTU's.
Constant air circulation will not dry out the incubation medium if your egg boxes are properly sealed. How will air infiltrate a sealed container? If you create air circulation you will avoid "dead areas" where the air temp is cooler or hotter. I run a fan on low speed in my incubator and I haven't had a problem with the medium drying out yet. Last year I never even had to add water to the mix.
Most motors on fans that are used in incubators are basically shaded pole motors and are not designed to be slowed down which is what happens using proportional t'stats. Which may be one of the reasons your motors are at 98 degrees, I don't know what kind of fans you use either. You could use a Permanent Split Capacitance motor or PSC, but that would involve a lot more than going to the store and buying a fan. If the voltage drops too much for too long the motor will not be able to turn the blade which will cause a motor to burn out. If anything else proportional t'stats will shorten the life of the motor.
Wil

Like I said before I am not saying your way will not work, I just feel better with knowing my fan is not always moving the air. But then again I am always in my incubator checking on my eggs so the exchange of air is never a issue for me. I also Never see my fan stop, it does slow down and still moves air. My fans are 3 inch-5 inch fans that can run off a direct wall socket if I wish. Like I also said I have used this fan for 2 years and it was a fan that someone had used before I got it out of a different used incubator that I bought, the fan has a 1990 date on it. But anyway I just like my way and I have hatched several clutches with my method of hatching. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

If you are comfortable using your setup, that is what you should use. You have to use what works for you, but what works for you may not work for someone else. I was offering advice to help maintain a more constant temp throughout an incubator. There is very little difference between a walk in cooler or freezer and an incubator. One regulates a cold temp the other a warm temp. In a walk in freezer the fans only shut down when the unit goes into defrost to melt the ice on the evaporator. Otherwise the fans continually run even when the compressor is off. The reason is to keep the temps even throughout the freezer. Reverse it and you can apply the same reasoning to an incubator. The way heat is transfered doesn't change no matter where you are. And if you call helix they will recommend not using a fan on their t'stats. I am also reminded of a saying that went something like: "Just because it has worked like this for years doesn't mean it has always been right". A lot of things just work, but the real question is, Is it working to its full potential or capacity or efficiency?
Wil

And to your statement about my setup out of your own mouth, Just because YOUR way works for you does NOT mean it will work for OTHER people or that it is the RIGHT way. You said it. I was just offering my way that has worked for me to someone that was looking for Information about incubators when you all decided that MY WAY was not a good way, It works and has worked for years, and That DOES MAKE IT THE RIGHT WAY FOR ME. If it works Don't fix it that is my motto. But anyway I would like to know how many clutches you have hatched in you incubators design? And have you tried other methods to get to what you are doing now with you incubator? Like I said I don't think your way is huge problem I just don't like my fan running full blast all of the time. Oh yea and I just remembered that you said if you properly seal your boxes the air would not dry your eggs out, right. then if the circulating air does not come in contact with the eggs what it the point? I would think you would have dead air in your boxes if the are sealed. I personally use rubbermaid containers with a sheet of glass over the top of the boxes and I do have a few air holes in the sides of my boxes. That lets fresh air in and moisture out for a even mixture of the two. Plus I raise the glass lid often to really exchange the air. That is what works best for me, and I have been hatching eggs for many years and ball python eggs for the last 2-3 years. I have even hatched green tree python eggs with this same system. It just works for me and Incubating eggs is not a very hard thing to do. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

I constructed my incubator using years of experience in the heating and a/c field and the understanding of heat transfer. I have been keeping reptiles for many years and used to hatch leopard geckos without an incubator, I've hatched bearded dragons in hovobators all long before I knew anything about the way heat is transferred. And frankly I have been building my collection of herps to breed only in the last couple of years. Before that my collection wasn't based around breeding. My way of thinking is why not try to do something that I truely love to do. It gets pretty hot in attics and drop ceilings in the summers here in South Carolina. I wouldn't be too upset if I could stop doing that. I am not going to say that my incubator is perfect or may not have any flaws, but I am willing to change things on it to compensate. All I am saying is that your way would never work for my incubator. My temps would be all over the place. It is 4'x5'x7.5' and I want that air circulation to maintain a more constant temp. Also your egg boxes really shouldn't have dead areas because the medium is uniformly heated once temps stabalize, constantly giving up its heat to the air in the box. It acts as a thermal mass. So your medium will maintain the temps longer than the surrounding air.
I am not saying that you have no clue and that your incubator is worthless and that you need to change it to my way. I am just stating facts and things I have observed in the field and not something that I just made up so I have something to write about.
Present the facts and how people use it after that is on them, if something needs changed or tweeking than do it, this isn't excatley written in stone.
Thanks,
Wil

Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)