Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am currently putting together plans for a 94 gallon corner tank to be set up for my Madagascar Day geckos. I was wondering, is it possible to put Mantellas in with them???

Jeff

With enough shade and damp ground yes. Give them a cool spot they dont like to be above 82. The geckos will need about 85 with an ~88 basking so the temperature gradient shouldnt be too hard to achieve. They do, however, eat smaller size crickets so make sure you provide them. Feed the geckos first so they wont go after the mantella's food.

Don't listen to that guy, and don't mix your geckos and mantellas. Just go spend an extra $20.00 or $30.00 and make a really good comfortable setup for your mantellas. You would need at least a 100 gallon aquarium to acheive the temperature gradient he is talking about, and the geckos could eat your mantellas regardless.

I know we went through this before (other forum members) but frogs I think are a different case. Couldn't a mantella be poisonous to a gecko, even if they never came in contact? What if the frogs decide to slime up the water dish? I also can really see a gecko eating a mantella...

Not if they're captive bred, and about 2/3 of the mantellas in pet stores are. The choice is yours, yet if you notice those who say no to these questions often have little or no scientific evidence behind them. To be sure, however, you should specify the type of mantella. By the way, frogs absorb water through their skin and do not secreet a substance harmfull to geckos unless they are wild caught. Salamanders on the other hand can wipe out a tank but thats a different story.

Now that is bull. You have ignored my question my friend, what species of mantella is in that tank?

Where in the hell did you get the figure 2/3 at? Please, please tell me who is the wonderful breeder supplying all of these captive-bred mantellas. As far as I know, not too many people are breeding mantellas wholesale, maybe Ryan, but I'm darn sure no petstore is going to take the time to raise up 50-300 Golden tadpoles to maturity just so they can have them to sell for $40 against the $15 WCs that are coming in.

Please cite your source, so I can find these breeders and applaud them.

You are correct on the price, this is why our mantellas go for $89.99. I am not in the place to give out breeder names.

That's the msot ridiculus price for a mantella I have seen. Why are they so much? Betsilio is one the most unappealing mantellas. How lnog have you had them in the community tank?
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Derek, I told you I thought his prices would be expensive. I figured someone with his marketing ploy would put ridiculous prices on his animals so that he can still make a profit since less people would buy from the store, but sales were almost assured to those of us who feel bad for animals and buy them.

Yea, that's a great laugh. Wonder why he hasn't told us the pet store name? he doesn't keep all the frogs that I have in his store unless he imports, which he sounds like he doesn't if he breeds betsilio and sells them for $80. They will be stuck in that tank until they die.
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P. sauvagei
derekb15.tripod.com/tropicaltreasures

Not the mantellas in there now......those run 39.99. I forget the species of the 89 dollar one. I'll try and find out for you next time I'm at work. Sorry but I'm not that big on memerozing mantella latin names or any latin names for that matter. Being a pet shop employee rather than breeder we usually concern ourselves with common names because thats what were asked for.

Do you work for Animal Mania? I seem to remember them being in Florida, and they have $90 Cowani, or atleast last time I looked on their website they did. That is still an ludicrous price, even if it's for Cowani.

However, of all the mantella species you could have chosen, Betsileo may have been the "best" choice, as they are fairly hardy, bold, and the toxin decahydroquinoline seems to be derived from their diet, since these are CB, there should be no risk of cross-toxification or poisoning. However, because of Betsileo's lack of warning colors, it would probably be considered an insect prey item by a large and hungry gecko or lizard.

I personally am not a big keeper of mantella frogs. I was however trained in all the information needed to know and pass onto customers. In addition to this I make a personal effort to research all of the herps I do not know very well. The person who set up the tank, however, has had much experience with mantellas and surely used that species for the reason you stated above. Thats just my guess simply because I have great respect for the one who set up the tank. And no thats not my shop.

All frogs are toxic to some degree. I can try to dig up a reference on that, I know it's in a book I have. Whether or not mantellas are toxic enough to kill a gecko, I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone knows.

I housed a young green tree frog (which i think is still a lot bigger the mantellas) with my giant day. My gecko still tried to eat it. Fortunately the gecko only caught the frog by the leg and i was able to rescue the frog. The frog survived. It took just over 24 hours for my gecko to react to the frog.

Maybe mantellas would be better suited to a smaller species of day gecko??

Claire

I never said these were giant days though. Ofcourse giant days would try and eat it. We keep small days suck as the peacock and the lined.

nm
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I currently keep:
1.2 leopard geckos
1.1 gold dust day geckos
7 dwarf ground geckos
0.1 chinese cave gecko
0.1 tokay gecko

Other species: crested gecko, giant day gecko

Several of the other posters have reason: Your day geckos will probably try to eat the mantellas. Even if it's uncertain that your mantellas will be toxic to the geckos, you will likely lose either some expensive frogs, or expensive frogs AND beautiful lizards.

Regarding antonm's claim to have a set up with half a dozen frog, lizard and snake species in a mere 2'x 2'x 2' enclosure... Mixing species like this is a bad idea. And although I don't really want to discredit antonm's word, I still think it's a little hard to believe that he has no problems with this mini-habitat.

But, take this analogy into consideration:

Smoking is bad for you, and can even kill you, right? Most North Americans are aware of this fact. But, what baffles the mind is that there are people who smoke that live to the ripe old age of 80 or 90.

Then again, there are people as young as their 30s that die from tobacco-related illnesses. You can't take those few, statistic-breaking exceptions as a model, though, because it is still a very rare anomaly that doesn't make much sense. It doesn't mean that "smoking will make you live longer," just because a few people that smoke live very long lives. That would be like saying driving a car gets you killed, because people die from car accidents.

...see my point? Just because there may be one case out of a million where mixing so many species in a small habitat worked, it doesn't mean you should try it, because there's so much room for failure.

Christina Miller

Herptiles.org

Well my original question came about because of the fact they all come from the same island. Now I'm not really big into geography, so I dont know the square miles of Madagascar, but they are still pretty smushed all into one place. I was just trying to take a fairly large tank and make it as natural a habitat as possible.. sort of like folks do with a reef tank. They mix different kinds of fish etc.. I understand the concerns with the temperature gradients and so forth, I just wanted to see what the thoughts were. Perhaps I am going about this the wrong way... are there multiple species of Madagascar day geckos.... that I can maybe get a couple of pairs of different ones in there??

Jeff

Many species of fish can successfully be maintained in community aquariums... But reptiles and amphibians are not fish.

Here's a post I made earlier about why it isn't a good idea to mix species:

Typically, mixing species is not a good idea, for several reasons:

1- Even if all of the animals are roughly the same size, larger lizards will take dominance over smaller ones, or even may consider the smaller lizards prey (you'd be surprised how large a meal some lizards might go after, especially if they're in a stressful, cramped cage situation). Also, when you first acquire the lizards, they may be the same size, but if you are not familiar with the species, you might end up with one lizard that grows to be twice the size of another. Also, what if one species is more agressive than another? The mellower animals would again end up being picked on, and eventually become ill and die if not eaten.

2- Any "community" terrarium (a term used by fish keepers, any enclosure containing more than one species) must be BIG. Every species must be allowed its own space, its own basking spot, its own hiding spots and its own feeding areas. You'll need at least double the space that you'd usually provide the species who needs the most.

3- Any animals you mix must come from the same habitat. Aside from the absolutely ludicrous idea of mixing desert species with forest species (which, and this should go without saying, NOT be done), even if two animals come from the same place, it does not necessarily mean that their needs are similar. Microhabitats within larger ecosystems are home to tons of species, and the conditions in microhabitats can be drastically different from the rest of the area the animal comes from.
Imagine this example: You have two lizards that live in the Amazon. However, one is a ground-dwelling skink, one is a tree-dwelling gecko. Although they both live in the same forest, the skink needs slightly cooler temperatures, higher humidity, places to burrow... A totally different habitat than the gecko, who lives in the forest canopy, would need different food than the skink, an arboreal set up, different temperatures and humidity, etc... Two very different needs from two animals that come from the same place.

4- Disease is common among many reptile and amphibian species because so many of them are still wild-caught. Bacteria are almost a guarantee (and other microorganisms could possibly be infecting one or more lizards), and even if they happen to be a kind of bacterium that is not harmful to one of the species you are keeping, if the other animals come from the other side of the world, their immunity to this particular organism is likely non-existant, resulting in one or more sick animals who will need to be separated and get veterinary attention.

With all of this in mind... I myself have one mixed-species enclosure in my home. It is a 33-gallon, forest-jungle terrarium, that houses one green anole, Anolis carolinensis, and one Asian flat-tailed house gecko, Cosymbotus platyurus. Both species have similar needs and temperaments, both have been quarantined before being introduced to each other, and as an added bonus: The anole is diurnal, the gecko is nocturnal.

So, even though it's not advisable because there's so many things that can be wrong with a community enclosure, it's still possible to do. Like my terrarium, small, non-tempermental house gecko species and green anoles seem to be fine together if allowed their own space. I've also been told that green anoles and American green tree frogs, Hyla cinera, can co-exist in a properly set up habitat. Although lizards and treefrogs can sometimes co-exist, putting snakes, chelonians (turtles, tortoises and terrapins) and salamanders together with lizards is not a good idea. The vast majority of these animals have care requirements that are too different, and many recognize the other as food.

Also, if you want to mix species, each animal must be properly quarantined for at *least* 60 days (90 is better), and tested for sickness by a vet. For more information on quarantining reptiles and amphibians, see my article: http://www.acc50.attcanada.net/jinx/herps/quarantine.html

...but mantellas and lizards (any size lizard) does not sound like a good idea in any case. I haven't any experience keeping mantellas myself, but there are several people on this board who have, and I would take their advice to not mix these species.

You're much better off making two separate terrariums for both the frogs and geckos.

Christina Miller

Herptiles.org

What a wonderful reply. I don't think it could've been better said