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I'm wondering if there are any known or suspected genetic combinations that are fatal.

I'm thinking along the lines of Albino x Albino breedings that tend to not produce as viable of clutches as Albino x Het Albino.

I'm guessing there might be some that are kept secret out there, but wondered if anyone has heard anything.
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Jeremy Conrad
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HAVE FUN WITH IT!!!
If you're not having fun, give 'em to me and I'll enjoy them for you!

I was wondering about the same thing. I know Ralph davis has tried to cross his lavender albinos with regular albinos. He has had no luck at all with the eggs. With the number of tries and using different females, he would have had some kind of luck.
Tom Muzek

RDR lav x t- breedings may just be bad luck or it may also be that the gentics are flawed so much that the babies can not develope past a certian point. The eggs are layed viable and take a few weeks to die. That raises mor questions then answers

Mixing Ghost lines has presented some bad results.
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Mike and David at 3-D Pythons
www.3dpythons.com

Albino x albino results in poor viable egg production?

>>Albino x albino results in poor viable egg production?

Anyone with experience w/ albinos x albinos?
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Jeremy Conrad
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...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

Ralph got 4.4 albinos out of eight eggs when he bred the granite albino to a normal albino.

The albino thing sounds like baloney to me. I would think that most people are just using their female albinos in more valuble projects then in just producing more albinos. I don't know why albino balls would be any different then any other species of snake that has an albino morph.

I think most of us have heard that albino x albino will produce less viable or smaller clutches - myth or fact? I remember seeing pictures of albino females sitting on some rather large piles of eggs but as far as I can remember - where they were bred to albino males, the males were also het for something else (axanthic or the like, even a granite albino would be carrying the granite gene that may be needed to increase viability) has anyone heard of a straight out albino x albino producing a large clutch? Seems odd that if it weren't an issue we would be discussing it.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Thanks, Tosha,
I know that I've heard that a few times about albino's but from what I've heard in replies (both e-mail and on the forum) I was starting to think I made that up. At least I know that much isn't true...whether or not homo x homo albino crosses do have less success or not.
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Jeremy Conrad
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...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

And that makes it 'RUMOR' and nothing more. I can easily see where there are some who would want to tank the female albino market by claiming that they have lower fertility rates. But until there are actual studies that can either prove or disprove the allegation, I still say that it's BALONEY.

I think most of us have heard that albino x albino will produce less viable or smaller clutches - myth or fact?

Albino Lampropeltis ruthveni will not produce offspring when bred to another Albino. That is why in the early days the breeder's gave hets when you purchased albinos.

I have spoken to scores of good snake breeders that have all failed to get albino to albino ruthveni to happen.

This is not a ball python and I have never seen nor heard of a similar situation in ball python genetics.

Most of the time when these discussions are had it is Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

Just wondering if there is only one originating line of albinos that you are talking about, or more than one originator?

Could be that the original albino that founded the line was het for a seperate mutation that is fatal in the homozygous version, or some such thing that in and of itself is not based on the albino gene, but on the originators pedigreed traits it passed on as well as the albino gene. Good example of something like this would be in Dalmations, there is a high occurrence of deafness which is not caused by the Dalmation genetics(white spotting, pretty sure it is a combination of genes that make the dalmation, not just one, since they have been line bred) but that is highly prevalent due to inbreeding without culling the deformed animals from the breeding population.

-Dan

>>Just wondering if there is only one originating line of albinos that you are talking about, or more than one originator?
>>

The bloodline started from one wild caught hetero individual. The albinism in ruthveni just popped up in two colonies. I have spoken to a couple dudes that tried to outcrossed and possible seperate the genes. They both failed. It seems the fatal gene is linked to the albinism in ruthveni.

FWIW, I believe "bugeyed" Luecistic Texas Ratsnakes have been out crossed, culled and cleaned up.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

OUT CROSS.... Your animals and you decrease the chances of bad genetics popping up.
Let's say you were to breed two normal ball pythons together and produce offspring, then line breed them with out outcrossing, eventually you may see kink backs and other anomolies pop out. If you out cross it is way less likley for these birth defects to happen. The issue is that most people want to make their investment back quickly or an other reason is you want fast results to see what you have so you buy an albino or two, raise them up then breed them. Now if you do some research before you buy, it is possible to get some seemingly unrelated lines.
No matter what if you were to take the homozygous animals and breed them to normals you would be outbreeding ( out crossing ) to make not so related hets. However the parents are still related and no matter how many genrations out you go if the animals are hets the genetic line is reverted back to the original homozygous animals. This can be good or this can be bad. If the original animals have more defects in their gentic make up then even more out crossing must be done.

J-

Yep you are right, outcrossing is the most poignant and easiest way to "fix" genetic deformities and fatals from being expressed in your morph population.....BUT inbreeding is just as if not more important a tool, because if you don't know what's going on and you are using highly heterozygous animals in your breeding projects then you are only going to confuse the situation much more so.

I always see people knocking inbreeding on this board, and while it definitely probably isn't a good idea to marry your sister/brother, it is definitely the most important step within any breeding project.

Good example would be corn(maize) breeding. The way in which they have created the massive ears of corn that we have now has been from taking highly inbred lines(high occurrence of homozygosity, very uniform progeny) and crossing them with another line that is also highly inbred, but from seperate pedigrees. Once these two lines are crossed, you will see the classic occurrence of "Hybrid Vigour" or otherwise known as "Heterosis" (high degree of heterozygosity). These F1 hybrids will produce more than either parent line, and be more resistant to droughts, diseases, pests, etc. This is a perfect example to illustrate how the two techniques(inbreeding, outbreeding) can be employed in conjunction to the fullest, achieving much more together than one would be able to using only one or the other.

The main thing is this, keep the best written and visual records you can on all your breeding projects, and if you want to know more about what is going on use inbreeding first, then go from there either via more inbreeding, or outcrossing. But just make sure that breeders are chosen not just for visual appearance, but for all around robustness, and you soon will be on your way to achieving the goals that you want with your project!

-Dan