Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i took alot of pics yesterday so here are a couple.

The first one is a jungle from EbN.

And these are of a het Sharp from ClassReptilia.


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Dave Lee
www.leereptiles.com

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Now look at that animal and tell me that sharp strain animals have not had the benefit of pastels being bred into them.

I believe that animal came from a salmon het sharp which sometimes adds color into the hets. That's why you see people selling normals as salmon littermates. I could be wrong but I don't think Ron M. has incorporated the pastel line into the sharps yet. Though it is a beautiful het sharp, it doesn't really have the overall pinks and reds all throughout the body that I have seen in most of the pastel lines. The kahl strain has been around longer and more people have worked to improve them. That's why you see such diversity and awesome colors in the ones that have been selectively bred. I think their is still tons of room for improvment with the sharp line. Would you disagree with that? I don't think you can really judge an entire strain from one single animal. For those who want to see a great example of the differences between the two strains check out basicallyboas.com. He has a page with the morphs he works with and I think you can really see the difference in the two strains. By the way everyone should check out Dave Lee's site and look at the AMAZING sunglows he has. They are impossible to stop staring at!
Michael Burton

Black washout determines a pastel or not... not pinks/yellows/etc.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw that het mark. Clearly a pastel... tons of washout. Obviously some of the lines have benefited from "pastelism".
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

I pesonally think that the sharp sunglows and albinos that are already being produced and have been produced this last year are about as refined breeding wise as the "selectively bred" kahl stuff. The het you posted is not my only example, i have several Sharp line animals and have been around long enuff to have seen a good amount of the bloodline. 99% of the hets ive seen are very pastel and are much nicer than any average boa.

Now for the ones that used a differet line of pastel, well you've seen the benefit they recieved from adding Pastel Dream to it. I honestly think they are about as good as they will get.

I am just stating my point of view, you dont have to agree with me, i am willing to respectfully disagree

Mark, I'm sure you have seen tons more sharps, kahls, hets, pastels, and just boas in general. I will agree with you their. You have one awesome collection of boas. I love debating this kahl sharps stuff with you guys. Its been a while since I was on a debate team and I just use this forum to get it all out. I hope you don't think I was trying to disrespect you in anyway. On the other hand, I definately disagree with your point of view that sharps are pretty much as good as they are going to get. The first sharp sunglow was produced less than two years ago. Do you also think the kahl strain is as good as it is going to get or just the sharp strain? As far as what Ryan said about pastels "wrong idea on pastels...black washout determines a pastel not...not pink/yellows." If you think that het sharp is a pastel. Do you think the fact that pastels are clean will add colors to the sharp line? I would think it would be the colors of pastels. I agree that most pastel lines are clean, but they also have pinks and reds throughout the body. I am confused how that is the "wrong idea." Here is a few things I found on some web-sites. From BOAPHILE.COM regarding his pastel dream albinos. "These animals are a product of breeding a "lucy" bloodline pastel female with an albino male. This is a very red pastel line that I have been working with to develop more and more reddish pastels for more than 15 years now....The more red influence seen in the parents, the more red that can be expected in the offspring." From CLASSREPTILIA.COM "Some bloodlines of pastels have impressive red and pink coloration." From PKREPTILES.COM regarding the selective breeding that has been done with the kahl strain "For the past ten years we have been selectively breeding the albino boa to produce the most diverse group of albino color/pattern variations second to none." Thats a whole lot of selective breeding in my book. So I still would say that when looking for a pastel you look for pinks and reds not just a cleaner snake. One other thing I will point out is the people who say...well how should I put this...people who say not the most positive things about the sharp line, most if not all are working with a selectively bred line of kahl sunglows like the lipstick or coral line. Just something I have noticed. But we shall see if the sharp line has reached its full potencial. Only time will tell.

What other sharp strain animals do you have besides the pair on the classifieds and the 66% poss het sharp sunglow?
Michel Burton

"Color is something that is enhanced by the Pastel trait not something that defines it at all."

"When I identified and described "Pastels" for the first time, I found that reduction of black was the cause of the prettier colors revealed."

" A Pastel is this: A Boa that has an odd overall wash lacking the normal amount of black and a reduction in black pigmentation in particular throughout the pattern."

Here is one for the idea that hypos add color to normals in hypo X normal litters.

"There is no reason at all to believe that Hypos have more color than their normal siblings. They are obviously far prettier but I contend they have the same red or orange but it can't be seen because of the black that is still present. There have also been lots of Hypos produced that show very little orange or red. The two are unrelated. The same is true of Pastels. Color and the degree of black are only related inasmuch as the black affects the degree to which we can see that color. The black alters color. "Pastelism" is variable but unrelated to the color itself"

"The Hypo and or the "Pastel" trait make it easier for us to see those colors we hope to get more of. That's all. It's really no more complicated than that. Now certainly some Pastel bloodlines have more red than others. That is obvious. However the red or orange does not make any Boa "Pastel". The reduction of black makes Pastels Pastel. The red or orange makes them better but do not define them"

Ok now that should make it clear what a pastel is. I contend your animal posted is a pastel.

AS for this comment...."One other thing I will point out is the people who say...well how should I put this...people who say not the most positive things about the sharp line, most if not all are working with a selectively bred line of kahl sunglows like the lipstick or coral line."

I will say that I have normal Kahl albinos that have been bred one generation into the Stipe line, and I have Kahl coral albinos, and I have first generation offspring from the original hets produced from the very first albinos Pete had, and albinos that were simply made with whatever. I also have sharp animals. Now let me get this straight, are you trying to say that since i have Nice Kahl animals, that i underate the Sharp stuff? I like sharp animals, they are unique and very beautiful animals. I just think there are just as impressive Kahl animals regardless off how much longer they have been around.

I also want to say that the Coral trait is not a selectively bred bloodline of boas, it is a common trait that shows up in many Kahl line breedings. Selective breeding has made it better.

I think we need a picture to liven this up a bit.

Slightly Gravid?

All quoted notations are from Jeff Ronne, "the boaphile"

I agreed with you about the pastels. I realize breeders use pastels to clean up other lines, but most have reds and pinks throughout the body. In a post above Djinn wrote "This little girl I bought is turning into one of the nicest pastels I have seen. She is getting VERY red." Perphaps the "true" definition from the person that started them years ago is that the black is washed out but I think when most people are looking for a pastel, they are looking for some color, not just a clean normal. I thought the offspring could only be pastels if the parents were. I stand corrected. The het sharp that was posted did not come from any line of pastels. Thus, it has not had the benefit of selective breeding like Jeff Ronnes pastel albinos. Fifteen years is a long time ro refine a pastel line and boy does it show. That het sharp is an exceptional animal (I would love to have it in my collection anyday), but it doesn't have the pinks and reds throughout the body that I have seen in most pastel lines. My question was do you think the fact that a pastel is clean will add color to an albino or the fact that they have pinks and reds throughout the body? Because I don't see the pinks and reds like I saw in the picture of your het coral albino. I personally believe it is the pinks and reds, not just the cleanliness. Now as far as hypo siblings having more color, that is just what I have heard. I know some people would disagree. To be honest I had a hard time following exactly what your quote was saying. Who wrote it and where can I find it? It said "There is no reason at all to believe that hypos have more color than their normal siblings....they have the same red and orange but it CAN'T BE SEEN because of the black that is still present. Here is something that you said earlier this year "Saying that nothing has been added to them is not true, once you have added the salmon gene, then you are adding color that wasn't just there..." So does a normal salmon sibling have added color or not? What other sharp strain animals do you have besides the pair you are selling and the 66% poss het sharp sunglow on your site? Are you expecting any sharp animals this upcoming season?
Michael Burton

"I agreed with you about the pastels."

What part are you agreeing with? I said your animal is a pastel., but you say it hasnt benefitted from selective breeding. It has benefitted from Pastelism, regardless if it has been line bred for 15 years or 1, it is a pastel, and is very full of color. If you take that and produce albinos with it, even with the kahlstrain, it is going to make pastel albinos, not just run of the mill normal albinos.

"Perphaps the "true" definition from the person that started them years ago is that the black is washed out but I think when most people are looking for a pastel, they are looking for some color, not just a clean normal"

You can interpret it as you want, but the bottom line is that PASTEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COLOR OR THE LACK OF, It only makes it easier to see the color! With that being said, it is only natural for people to selectively breed the best Colored Pastels in order to make them more colorful.

"My question was do you think the fact that a pastel is clean will add color to an albino or the fact that they have pinks and reds throughout the body?"

The best colored normal can produce just as nice if not better albinos than a good pastel as long as the color is there, but if it is a big black animal, it would be hard to tell without breeding it because the black masks the color, and until the black is taken away, the color wouldnt be seen.

That also is explained in the quote you dont understand, who was it that said that you ask? It was Jeff Ronne and it can be found on his sticky thread in his forums covering the history of Pastels and hypos.

could you point me to the topic you got the quote of me out of?

"So does a normal salmon sibling have added color or not?"

No, hypos dont add color. Color adds color.

"What other sharp strain animals do you have besides the pair you are selling and the 66% poss het sharp sunglow on your site"

I have a few.

"Are you expecting any sharp animals this upcoming season?"

I bred a male 100% het sharp to a nice female that has thrown some nice pastels for me the last two seasons. It should give me a nice litter of 50% hets. Amazing how few are willing to do breedings like that to get outcrossed blood :/

So you think the sharp sunglows have pretty much reached their full potential in less than two years. I just find this hard to believe. Out of the 99% of het sharps that you have seen, were you saying they were all pastels or came from a pastel line? There is only one or two people that I know of that have bred pastels into the sharp strain. You said "I personally think that the sharp sunglows and albino that are already being produced...are about as refined breeding wise as the selectively bred kahl stuff. I honestly think they are about as good as they are going to get." How could this be possible if their are many more breeders working with kahls and they have been around longer. That just doesn't make sense to me. My question before was do you think the kahl strain is as good as it is going to get as well, or just the sharp strain? Now I know you don't always have to agree with your friend Ryan Homsey, but I just thought it was interesting what he said a while back this year "Refined sharps will likely be superior because the unrefined version seems to be superior...There is quite a future for them...If one is going to weigh Kahl versus sharp at this point I think it should be taken into consideration that one has the benefit of refinement while the other doesn't" I couldn't have said it better myself. I never said you are underrating anything. I realize this is just your opinion, but saying sharp sunglows and albinos are as good as they are going to get is not the most positive thing. And the handful of breeders that say these not so positive things all seem to be working with either the coral or lipstick line of sunglows. This is just something that I have noticed. I'm sure you think the sharp strain is beautiful but some of your opinions just sometimes make it seem that you don't like the strain. Here are just a couple past things you have said that I was able to find. You said "I agree 100% very well said executive" This is what executive said "I think the sharp sunglows will lose popularity a lot faster that salmon jungles...The price of sharp albinos will drastically drop." You said "I think its funny how some of you are so stuck on the sharp strain...News Flash, just in, ITS JUST AN ALBINO." "Nice Sharp, but mostly orange, I don't see much red." I'm sure I could find more examples, just don't have the time or patience. Here is a quick recap of the question I have asked 1)Do you think the fact that a pastel is clean will add color to an albino or the fact that the pastel has pinks and reds throughout the body like your het coral albino has? 2)Does a normal salmon sibling have added color or not? 3)What other sharp animals do you own beside the pair you are selling and the poss het on your site? Are you expecting any sharp animals this season? 4)Do you think the kahl strain is as good as it is going to get, or just the sharp strain?
Michael Burton

Thanks for your nice blurb about my site.
Wow, I like the debate. When I get home, I will look for a pic of a sibling (much more pastel looking) that I turned down for this richer darker colored one.
Now for the bombshell...the snake pictured is going to another home soon. I thought I would keep a foot in the door with the sharp strain starting with this one girl, but I soon realized that as your collection grows bigger than you are comfortable with, the daily chores that you are used to and love doing starts to feel a little more like a chore (of course, everyone's capacity for the number of snakes is different).
I feel so fortunate that my Barry Berg line of Sunglows gave me my 15 seconds of fame, and hopefully this special Class Reptilia het sharp girl will do similar for his next up and coming breeder.
I now understand the challenge that my older breeders friends are always dealing with which is against the normal logic...how to keep your collection "small". At least the ones that have a day job...lol.

Sorry for ranting, here is a pic when I first got her...pic credit goes to her breeder, Ron M.

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Dave Lee
www.leereptiles.com

Well, when should I be expecting her at my door? LOL. That girl is a screamer! I am very shocked you are letting her go. Did someone inquire about buying it from you, or was it your idea? If the sale falls through here is my email ibiza69821@sbcglobal.net. Take care.
Michael Burton

I answered all your questions in the post above in my last post.

"And the handful of breeders that say these not so positive things all seem to be working with either the coral or lipstick line of sunglows."

I have no clue where you came up with this assumption but it has nothing to do with Sharp animals being pastel.

I personally like Kahl strain better, it has a ton of advantages over the Sharp line. Im not out to convert would be albino owners into Kahl fans, i am just speaking from my experience with the two bloodlines.

There are those that would like to make Sharp strain out to be the holy grail of albinos, which is simply not true in my opinon and from the respnse ive seen from this forum as well as the response, or should i say lack of response, i got from my recent attempt to sell some of these animals, it is apparant that I am not the only one that feels this way.

"Out of the 99% of het sharps that you have seen, were you saying they were all pastels or came from a pastel line?"

They were all very pastel looking, not from a known line of pastels. The way this could happen is when Pete first started his project the pastel trait was not yet defined, and more importantly, all Pete wanted to do was make more hets and albinos, I really doubt if he went to the trouble to hand pick animals with more color to breed his albinos to. At the point in time when Brian started his project, Pastels were already being produced by selective breeding for color and I am willing to bet my right arm, that Brain used a very nice animal in his first breedings and continued to do so in follwing breedings.

Another factor is that the first Kahl sunglows were produced with unrefined hypos where the Sharp line is starting out with much nicer hand picked animals. Better Hypos/Salmons make better sunglows.

Ok after all that has been said, i just want to make sure you foloow this one last thought. Selective breeding for color has added color to the animals we see today, not just simply adding the albino gene from either strain. Wether you would liek to admit it or not, there has been selective breeding going on for some time now with the Sharp stock that is on the market today. I think both strains have benefitted from the selective breeding done with other animals making Boas overall that look cleaner and have more color.

I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with pastels. I said the sharp strain in general. I would say there is some kind interest in the sharp strain. Most breeders don’t even have to post them on kingsnake. And the ones that do seem to sell out pretty fast. Of course people take into consideration the way the animal looks. I don’t think you can say there is a lack luster interest in them just because you haven’t sold your pair. There are kahl albinos, sunglows, and DH sunglows that have been in the classifieds longer then your pair. But I would still say people have a huge interest in them. I can absolutely admit there has been selective breeding with the sharps. Never said there wasn’t. All I was saying is the kahl strain has had more time for this selective breeding to be done. I don’t think you can say for sure that Pete didn’t use hand picked animals to breed into his line. This is what he says “For the past ten years we have been selectively breeding the albino boas to produce the most diverse group of albino color/pattern variations, second to none.” As far as, “selective breeding has added color not a specific gene.” I am not so sure about that. Just look at the original sharp female. She had tons of color as an adult. I have never heard that Brian Sharp used a pastelish looking boa to start his line. Some morphs lose color, some gain color, and some change color. Of course with refined breeding this can be changed, but isn’t it possible this is just the way the sharp gene works? It would take breeding them to a colorless normal or maybe breeding a kahl and a sharp together and then breed the offspring back to each other to prove this. What are the tons of advantages with the kahls? I would think there would be advantages with both, not just the kahl’s.
Michael Burton