Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yo, your post below requires some work

You are correct that triangulum is sympatric (& undoubtedly preyed upon), but getulus [I understand] stop in the N 1/2 of Mexico...Indigos & Clelia continue on deep into S America. Weather or not getulus would in their absence is obviously just "hypoth-eculation" on my part!

Getulus are definately affected by Clelia venom, Ive heard they also are to various ophiophagous elapid venoms...The degree to which they are & how time to death varies from other colubrids of similar mass... is what I'll leave dormant for now.
The one gigae I have kept would not take snakes (it would lizards) & Id never want to offer one to a Clelia; too hard to come by.
Im not sure your last comment is accurate, theyre all filling their various niches just fine, & my experimentation is just that. For me, its interesting that an organism that can absorb a full hit from a diamondback is vulnerable to the venom of an opisthoglyph we consider "harmless".
Super jpg you posted too...Biers / RxR

Posted by: Keith Hillson at Thu Feb 16 08:44:55 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Thats an impressive snake ! You mentioned that Lamps dont have overlapping ranges with Clelia. What is their range ? I thought they were found in central america and central america is a hotspot for Lamps (Triangulum). Also what did you find out in regards to Kings and venom resistance to Clelia ? I know you mentioned you didnt wanna post your data but come on dont be a wuss lol. I looked at Doug Taylors info on Clelia clelia and saw your pics of hatchling Cal Kings being eaten but there was a considerable size difference. Did you try your experiment with a same sized getula ? Ive heard Black Milsk will eat snakes in the wild and they are found in Costa Rica and Panama. Have you tried them against a Clelia ? Im open to the fact that the Clelia may be the superior predator but I would like to see some proof or at least more anecdotal data.

Keith

>>Yo, your post below requires some work
>>
>>You are correct that triangulum is sympatric (& undoubtedly preyed upon), but getulus [I understand] stop in the N 1/2 of Mexico...Indigos & Clelia continue on deep into S America. Weather or not getulus would in their absence is obviously just "hypoth-eculation" on my part!

I think to assume that because Getula doesnt range that deep into Dry and Clelia range is odd thinking. You are assuming that they would only prey on Lamps but why ? If they are so good at eating snakles then there would only be Drys and Clelia in central and S America...yet those places are filled with snakes of all kinds. Also I dont think Tropical Triangulum are much like say Eastern Milks. In otherwords they are probably more Kingsnake like than other Tri's. Many think they arent related very closely to N American Triangulum at all. I just find it odd that you think Dry's and Clelia's would see out Lamps for lunch...its sorta silly dont ya think ? Also why doesnt Clelia range further north ? Or for that matter why doesnt Drymarchon extend past S Georgia ? Did the Kings eat them all ? lol of course not I think its more to do with temps than being ousted by another species. Im interested to know if you have pitted a same sized Getula...specifically a Eastern King or Florida King against a Clelia? If not then your hatchling Getula on large Clelia seems sorta rigged in favor of Clelia. How about hatchling Clelia against a 2 year old Eastern King?
>>
>>Getulus are definately affected by Clelia venom, Ive heard they also are to various ophiophagous elapid venoms...The degree to which they are & how time to death varies from other colubrids of similar mass... is what I'll leave dormant for now.
>>The one gigae I have kept would not take snakes (it would lizards) & Id never want to offer one to a Clelia; too hard to come by.
>>Im not sure your last comment is accurate, theyre all filling their various niches just fine, & my experimentation is just that. For me, its interesting that an organism that can absorb a full hit from a diamondback is vulnerable to the venom of an opisthoglyph we consider "harmless".

Again lets hear or see your data ? What snakes did you use ? Size weight etc... Nice topic to debate.
-----

...I agree theres a simplicity there that may not be reflected in reality (hey whats new!), but rather than odd...I like thinking outta the box! Any thinking is good in these nutty times where regressives shoot 1st & ask ??'s later if at all....
I did allow kings to scent the Clelia just to test their Rx...you see that behavior & the venom effect or non-effect is what Im testing...not "whose the tougher"; Getulus response ranged from curious repeated flicking of the tongue to recoiling & musking, very different than what happens if they tongue a coachwhip. I attempt to standardize the envenomation by allowing a 5 min chewing & then I seperate them for the venom effect analysis. Like any decent inquiry, Ive developed a few answers but more importantly what I think is a pretty good question.

Posted by: Keith Hillson at Sat Feb 18 12:08:36 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

>>Yo, your post below requires some work
>>
>>You are correct that triangulum is sympatric (& undoubtedly preyed upon), but getulus [I understand] stop in the N 1/2 of Mexico...Indigos & Clelia continue on deep into S America. Weather or not getulus would in their absence is obviously just "hypoth-eculation" on my part!

I think to assume that because Getula doesnt range that deep into Dry and Clelia range is odd thinking. You are assuming that they would only prey on Lamps but why ? If they are so good at eating snakles then there would only be Drys and Clelia in central and S America...yet those places are filled with snakes of all kinds. Also I dont think Tropical Triangulum are much like say Eastern Milks. In otherwords they are probably more Kingsnake like than other Tri's. Many think they arent related very closely to N American Triangulum at all. I just find it odd that you think Dry's and Clelia's would see out Lamps for lunch...its sorta silly dont ya think ? Also why doesnt Clelia range further north ? Or for that matter why doesnt Drymarchon extend past S Georgia ? Did the Kings eat them all ? lol of course not I think its more to do with temps than being ousted by another species. Im interested to know if you have pitted a same sized Getula...specifically a Eastern King or Florida King against a Clelia? If not then your hatchling Getula on large Clelia seems sorta rigged in favor of Clelia. How about hatchling Clelia against a 2 year old Eastern King?
>>
>>Getulus are definately affected by Clelia venom, Ive heard they also are to various ophiophagous elapid venoms...The degree to which they are & how time to death varies from other colubrids of similar mass... is what I'll leave dormant for now.
>>The one gigae I have kept would not take snakes (it would lizards) & Id never want to offer one to a Clelia; too hard to come by.
>>Im not sure your last comment is accurate, theyre all filling their various niches just fine, & my experimentation is just that. For me, its interesting that an organism that can absorb a full hit from a diamondback is vulnerable to the venom of an opisthoglyph we consider "harmless".

Again lets hear or see your data ? What snakes did you use ? Size weight etc... Nice topic to debate.