Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone explain why herps prefer to be in appropriate sized cages? With carpet pythons and most captive snakes, you start them in a small cage and as they get bigger you move them into a larger cage. If you put them in a too large of a cage they can go off feed. It seems like in nature they have unlimited space so why does it stress them to have too much space in captivity. Actually, I don't understand why it's like that with house plants either.
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python (both gorgeous)
1.1 Ball Python (normals, he said proudly)
3.3 hatchling ball pythons (normals)
1.1 Ball Python (het for albino)(gonna make my own albino)
1.1 Corn Snake (Okeetee, Sunglow x Snow)
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake (Blairs)
1.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Pueblan Milksnake (normal)(Apricot)
1.1 Andean Milksnake (Inca phase) (het)
0.0.1 Bullsnake (normal)(my garbage disposal snake)
1.1 Bullsnake (red bull) and (het red bull)
0.1 Black Pine Snake need '05 mate!
1.1 Southern Snow Pine (snow)(red phase snow)
1.2 Checkered garter snakes (albino pair & het female)
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)(hates the herps,and not real crazy about the dog)

I'm kind of moderate on the subject and see a place for natural, semi-natural and easy maintence reasonable sized tubs.

That being said I have had nice mellow animals turn into stressed tail rattling, musking nervous whacked out individuals when placed in a large cage on a number of occassions in an attempt to do right by my charges.

Makes you wonder where the "benefits" are to have an animal feel like it's free and then stress out anew like it was just caught, over and over( is that really "healthy" and in the animals best interests?) every time you service the cage or walk by.

Makes me wonder if the large cage thing is SOMETIMES a salve for our consciences to put off the guilt of keeeping these beautiful animals in captivity. If that's the case sometimes maybe we need to make peace with the decision we made about releiving them of their natural way of life and make their captive lifespans reasonable and comfortable.

Maybe this is an instinctive thing due to predation (ex. birds of prey). If you go too large then smaller, snakes will go off feed also most of the time. A larger cage probably makes it feel more exposed than a smaller one, therefore it becomes defensive.

My 2-cents
Scott Robinson

I was kind of figuring the exposed feeling in a large cage too, but if you had a few tight hiding places for them to choose from, one warm, one cool, maybe one humid as well, you would think they would be ok with a larger cage. It's not like I'm trying to get around this, I've accepted that's the way it is, I'm just trying to understand it better.
I still don't get it about the house plants either. I wanted to spare no expense to provide a nice big planter pot for some house plants and they practically died on me. I learned you have to move them up to a slightly bigger pot and gradually move up.
Oh, by the way, hi Scott, good hearing from you.
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python (both gorgeous)
1.1 Ball Python (normals, he said proudly)
3.3 hatchling ball pythons (normals)
1.1 Ball Python (het for albino)(gonna make my own albino)
1.1 Corn Snake (Okeetee, Sunglow x Snow)
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake (Blairs)
1.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Pueblan Milksnake (normal)(Apricot)
1.1 Andean Milksnake (Inca phase) (het)
0.0.1 Bullsnake (normal)(my garbage disposal snake)
1.1 Bullsnake (red bull) and (het red bull)
0.1 Black Pine Snake need '05 mate!
1.1 Southern Snow Pine (snow)(red phase snow)
1.2 Checkered garter snakes (albino pair & het female)
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)(hates the herps,and not real crazy about the dog)

There’s no such thing as a “too big” cage, just one that is inappropriately configured for the species you wish to maintain.

I'd be interested in hearing some examples...It's not so much that I disagree with you as much as I'm open to seeing it from other angles. I have my experiences but I realize they aren't the only ones.

Animals and cages,sizes of both. Attitudes before and after.practicality of maintenance. Ability to monitor health.
Thanks,
Bob.

By the way, When I have tried to put animals in larger cages and things went bad I ddin't just throw them into an empty cage I provided cover and concealment with warm and cool hides.

I have even at one time or another thought to take an ordinary bedroom, paint the walls with a good washable semi-gloss, put a tarp down for a mulch substrate using stones to walk on when entering that would not allow the animals to burrrow under and get squashed inadvertently and augmenting the natural lite coming from the window with a metal halide lite and some planters with Monstera and the like as well as a small water feature (without too much humidity to damage the wallboard) and replacing the door with a glass door that opens out.

>>There’s no such thing as a “too big” cage, just one that is inappropriately configured for the species you wish to maintain.

I wholeheartdly agree with Joan. I think when a snake is placed in a larger cage and it goes off of feed, the whole situation needs to be looked at. It's not as cut-and-dried as saying, "well it's obviously the larger cage that did it - well, back to the sweater box for you." I think most large cages are configured with little imagination or thought about what the habitat is like that these animals live in. Interestingly, many European snake keepers believe you've gotten the cage right when the animal "goes native" on you - eg. hisses, tail rattles, etc. After all, that's truly natural behavior for the snake. Also, provided the cage is set up properly, cover can be provided that minimizes stress reactions in the occupant. Sure, if you want a nice lap snake that never takes dump on you or hisses or tail rattles than you're obviously seeking something different out of the experience. I've got snakes in multiple natural setups that are perfectly placid while others are completely "native". I don't really handle any of my snakes that much as for me it's more about observing behavior and trying to get the whole environment just right, vs. having a snake that I can take out and handle all the time.
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977

Cool way of looking at it...

I guess we are talking a difference of experience. Each has different expectations as you said.

I can see the appeal of having a naturalistic vivarium and "natural" animals.

I guess for me,at this point in my life, (That could change next year) I am appreciating not having a lot of animals anymore, simplifying things and enjoying as you said, some placid beautuiful animals being kept in larger somewhat sterile confines.

I think with the excitement and wonder of the naturalistic vivariums there is also a place in the hobby to keep some herps in the same manner as folks who keep/breed and enjoy large parrots,horses, dogs, cats etc.and still be a good caregiver.
ex. I can keep a dog in my home and enjoy the interaction without the need to recreate a forest for him, allowing him to only chase down live prey and keeping him at length like that guy in the bear movie that gets eaten at the end. Animals are good medicine in our lives.

You make a good point about expectations...
Bob.

I keep my young ball python (about 17 inches long) in a 55-gallon long aquarium. Many people have told me that this cage is far too big for this little snake. They say that the big cage will make her feel nervous and could make her stop feeding.

I don't argue with their experiences, but she's had no problems so far. She seems to be feeding more aggressively all the time. My vet says that she's fine, and some other people say that her cage is fine.

The one thing I do to try to make her cage seem smaller is provide a larger than usual number of accessories. She has four hides plus a low, fake plant that she uses as a hide. She has another fake plant that may break up some of the feeling of overhead exposure. The back of the aquarium has a paper backing so that she isn't looking out at the wall behind the cage. She can move around the cage without being seen all that much.

Bill

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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.