Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thank you all for your info on the temp gauges, Now i've got a question about substrate, I see the post below about 50/50, but i'm actually interested in is your guys opinion on this room i'm converting, the room measures 10 1/2' x 11' should be pretty good for a full grown water dontcha think? anyway putting that much soil and clean out would be quite unbelievable, so I had two ideas, one was build a drain into the floor and use a kind of concrete for most the room bottom and have it angle to the drain so i can spray down the room and that would be a little easier and have a good section in the room have a discret hiding box filled with subsrate so he can dig in and i can keep that moist for him. I also plan on putting in a mist system so it'll stay humid in there. Or just make the room so i can just shovel out the substrate when i clean it out, what are your guys input??

I would opt to cover the entire floor with substrate rather then cement. Cement is not very good for them to walk on and will leave them with sores on their feet as well as unnatural curved toes and claws. By design they are better suited for walking on dirt, leaf litter, or climbing tress etc. then walking on a hard flat surface. You also would probly find it would remain in or nearest the substrate rather then using the rest of the cage.

I am glad your thinking of investing so much for your monitor. I hope to not stop you, but instead give you the reality of what your facing.

The size of the room is fine, but the problem is, its a room. Which may mean its it your house. If I am wrong and its an out building, then ignore the following parapraph.

In order to keep the room suitable for an adult water monitor, it will destroy your room. It will rot the floors, the walls and wrap the entire structure. Hi humidity does that indoors. Normally the design of houses is with low humidity in mind. So keep in mind, your room most likely will be destroyed, possibly much of your house.

Of course you could line all the interior walls with FRP panels or something equal.

You could also keep the room too dry and this will have effects on the health of your monitor. In reality if managed your monitor may only live ten years instead of 25, which may be alright with you. As in, thats your choice.

Also, you mentioned its for a water monitor, wheres the water? Yes, keeping large amounts of water in a house is also ruins the house. Maybe a better choice is to keep a species that does not need swimming water. You can keep a water monitor without water, but then whats the sense of that?

About your substrate setup. I think you fail to realize the abilities of larger monitors. I did too. A tiny story, I decided to make a leaflitter pile for my lacies, I went and gathered leaflitter, I raked for hours. I collected leaves and stacked them in a pile about 10ft by 10ft, and over two feet high. The point of the story is, the male lacie went over and stuck his head in the leaves, then move the whole pile in a few minutes. I soon realized the similarity of their feet and a rake. This goes for dirt, the problem with making piles on one side of the cage or making a small box is, they move all the dirt in minutes. They move it out of where it was and over to where it wasn't. So your dirt box is not the best idea. It is an idea, just not very workable.

And yes, there was a fella that had an out building and converted a room for water montiors, He made a big pond and deep dirt and yes his monitors did well and actually produced babies at least once. But it was not long after he got rid of his waters. I really don't know why, but I have an idea that the cost and the work was too much to bare for long periods. You see, monitors live for long periods if taken care of. I have a male lacie that can be tracked back almost 22 years and hes going strong.

Which goes back to the original point, how will your room hold up to high humidity and water and moist dirt for long periods of time, this is a prime consideration.

ALso, how about service, for instance, I have a monitor building, not only are the cages water resistant, but the whole room is as well. And the rows of cages all have wheelbarrow access. How do you get all the stuff in, and better yet out? Moving stuff in is kinda fun, out is just nasty work.

You do understand that natural materials contain natural stuff(bugs) What we found was, making a large cage with natural materials also creates the oppertunity for invasive and feral creatures(I just relearned the difference) And in hords. For me, the biggest setbacks have been invasive creatures. From horrid blooms of the bugs that come in crickets, to black widows to kissing bugs(the worse)

AT one time, I would kill and this is an under estimate, millions of black widows a day. Of course I got lucky and some other kind of spider ate the widows and they do not make massive amounts of babies, and they don't bother me. Also, monitors did not eat black widows, but do eat the other type of spider. So now black widows are rare. The kissing bugs are the worse, they not only attack the monitors, suck their blood, but they attack me. The black widows did not attack me, thank god.

The above paragraphs brings about a reality. If this was in my house, a couple of things would have occurred. My wife and family would have first killed me, then burned the house down, or visa versa. Or I would have killed off the monitors, bugs, burned the house down and done in my family just to clean the slate.

I wish you luck, and you do understand, if you have a male, they get really really big. Which means, really really big piles come out the other end. Cheers

Awesome information from various people i love feedback, the more you know the better off you will be. Luckly for me Family is not a problem I'm single and plan on staying that way, I lost some awesome reptiles cause of "love" so that aint happenin again. I own the house i am in and i'm actually making it more of a reptile house anyways lol. I do infact have a monitor which requires less water and humidity which is my Black throat currently 3 1/2 feet which i am actually planning a conversion of my dining room area which also faces my living room for him. As for the Water I definately thank you for all that info, I understand making a room into practically a sauna will not be an easy task, and infact I was just on a project at a day spa in my town which dealt with turning a room into a sauna so i actually have a bit of experience on doing this and i'll consult the people that did the major work on it, With alot of planning and careful calculations i'm hoping it will work out.. nothing really fades me on doing a project, the more difficult just makes me research more and more so i can get it right. I did think of the bugs that was a concern of mine.. I do live in a desert which in the summer it's so hot you rarely ever see any bugs and winter is so cold same thing. i'm hoping that will be in my favor, but i do know mites can be a problem here, but again only more research will help me figure that out. I plan on putting a false wall, floor and ceiling up, like how you were saying to protect the actual house. kind of like a huge cage put into a room if that makes sense. So yeah Thank you very much for what you have added and anything else would be very much appreciated. Like i said the more feedback the better!

If your going to redo the room, then do it like building a shower. Pond liner on the floor and up two feet on the walls. A moisture barrier on the walls, 7 to 10 ml pvc plastic. Cover the floor and lower walls with tile backing(FRC) finish with FRP panels or plaster or tile. Easy, oh and expensive.

But what about a pond, and a really big pond. Hmmmmm you live in the desert, I live in the desert, I make an outdoor part, with a door going into the inside part. You can do that and not have to worry about an indoor pond.

The picture is an indoor/outdoor setup I made much like I discribed above. The picture is from the inside window.

Sadly, we have hot summers and cold winters(not this year) and the female while gravid, broke the metal door off the metal hinges and went out in the winter, went in the water and drown. Actually she did it twice. The first time she broke the locking mechanism, I reinforced that, then knowing she could get out, she broke the hinges. You can see, those are three inch mental hinges, still broke them. I included this to give you an idea that large monitors are very very strong. With very strong arms.

Others have reported water monitors digging right thru normal sheetrock walls and out the other side. Good luck and keep us updated. Cheers

Interesting report. I have had several monitors that seemed to "problem-solve" their way out of enclosures. Once they know they can do something, they keep trying even after I "fixed" the problem. I had a nile who was notorious for it. I have a water that is also notorious for it. My croc would be notorious for it, but the croc was too much to risk my own learning curve and I fixed and anticipated many problems after the first escape. There is one problem left, and he does not seem to care about it yet. It is on the list of things to be fixed this week (I only noticed it recently as an issue).

In terms of waters tearing through sheetrock, I do not doubt their ability. What I am left to wonder is why. I guess it is really a "what" question. What is wrong in the enclosure that led the monitor to feel the need to escape. Naturally curious does not answer this question. A naturally curious monitor will see and explore the confines of its enclosure and will then accept them provided the enclosure is decent. An unhappy monitor will not accept the confines of its enclosure and dig through anything to get out.

I have used indoor rooms with unmodified walls for a number of monitors of varying species: niles, salvators, savannahs, arguses, and iguanas (ok, not monitors). The only time any of them ever scratch on the walls purposely is when they are upset about something. I fix the problem and they stop. I have used multiple rooms with unmodified walls for over 6 years now. No one has dug their way out yet. They must be content enough with the provisions in the room to decide against digging their way out.

That said, in hindsight, I would have invested money in some sort of wall coverings for no other reason than they have scratched the walls up pretty bad superficially when climbing on other things that repainting and preparing this room for when I sell my house will take forever!
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

I would think the walls would rot in the typical cage conditions. Did you modify the floor or lower section to hold in substrate?

I have had monitors destroy cages from digging, also had salvators destroy mortar tubs. A friend of mine got in some bluetails and one of them dug right into the dry wall. So I know it can be done. I too would suggest covering the walls. It will not only help prevent them from ripping into the walls but it will also stop the walls from becoming moldy or rotting.

The floor is covered with cheap vinyl tiles (I'd go with something a bit more durable in the future). On top of that I have a bit of mulch. Less mulch than I had before but still more or less covered.

I have a separate box for substrate. It is approximately 6 feet long x 3 feet wide x 2 feet deep. It is propped up on cinder blocks. This provides a 6 x 3 hide spot beneath the dirt box. For the large male, he is wedged under it when he goes there. The other two salvators are not wedged when under it. The box was waterproofed at one point, but moves and a poor frame for the amount of dirt inside it has led to cracks in the waterproofing.

There is a separate, shallow 6 x 2 x 8in (all approximate) horse trough for water. It is also propped up on cinder blocks creating another hide area beneath it. This hide area is used infrequently (I suspect it is cooler).

The dirt is a bit drier than I would prefer, but given the limitations of the room I feel (based on observations of the animals) that it is acceptable. I do wet the dirt down on occasion although I could do a better job on that point.

It is not my dream room, but it seems to work.
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

Well the look this future water room is going to be quite a project I'm actually going to be going with a half indonesian temple side going into a rock/jungle second half with the temple part being the pond which will feature a waterfall that looks like the side of a temple wall featuring a asian god figure (maybe buddha) and water coming from out of the wall and down into the pond and the temple will mold into the rock formation going into the jungle side featuring an asian vine tree and rock forms creating shelves and a cave for hiding in. I'm basically turning the room into a bathroom. I plan on putting up a fake wall, floor and ceiling which i'll use ceramic tiles for the flooring and up the sides of the walls, the wall i haven't picked out the material but i have found various ones i'm researching for to be perfect for the humidity i plan on keeping in there. I'm also running plumbing into the room for the waterfall which will be hidden behind a fake temple section i can take out and get to the filter and valves.. etc.. etc... So soon i'll be posting the actual prints of the plumbing, electrical and so forth and then the prints of the actual design of the room. so be looking for it within the next couple weeks.. this is going to be a blast

Another idea for you to think about. All that exhibit stuff is fun, but will be a pain in the backside. It also will make the room worse(limits) for offerring usable options for the monitors.

Again, there are many ways to skin the cat. If that something cool you want, the temple and such. Then it can be a mural(actually should be) with the room filled with trees, vines,(artificial and real) that can be used by the monitors.

I worked building naturalistic enclosures, then worked up(down) to having my own exhibits company. When I first started keeping monitors, I build all sorts of "naturalistic" enclosures. There was a problem. Monitors do not seek that out. They seek out a combination of set conditions. Heat, humidity, security. In most cases, it barren areas.

Heres the deal, your not designing a working enclosure for your monitor, your designing a postcard from indo. The problem is, its your postcard and not the monitors. If you actually went to indo/asia and looked at wild waters, you may find they perfer something different.

I think you should realize the above. The choice of making an enclosure for you, or for your monitor. Its your choice. The monitors choice is far cheaper and easier to maintain. Your choice will end up with an artificial monitors, because a live one will ruin it. Just think, how well your waterfall will work with a ten pound turd plugging it up(every few days) and that is only a minor problem. Cheers

Wow Frank,
For the last week or so I have been feelin' your posts,you made some great points about the situation in Fla,and you were right on the money in regards to the Melinus threads, but with no due respect, all offense intended....I mean...( joking man, really)
You couln't be more wrong about "naturalistic" enclosures.
What you are describing are your own failures, not the actuall ability of artificial props to function properly.
The issue is design,you can design and build "fake " rocks and trees that provide the temps, humidity and security for the animals,it just is not easy and takes a really long time to perfect.
An enclosure with a naturalistic,usable background can work in conjuction with real branches or rockpiles,making the space for the monitors more functional AND aethetically pleasing,again its all about the design and application.
It is true that many if not most large displays or exhibits for monitors are poorly designed and built,we have all seen large beautiful enclosures at zoos and stores that offer nothing in the way of usable space for the animals.This does not mean that large natural enclosures don't work, mearly that these particular designs dont.
I have been keeping my monitors in enclosures that you (FR) deemed too big,and built for me not my monitors,with props that were "unusable".Funny thing, my guys use their enclosures to carry out all of their "life functions" living to ripe ages, breeding,hatching, etc. Heres whats happening at my place today.
Enjoy

I've got no problem with what FR is saying infact i thank him for all ups and downs of what he has been saying atleast we know he really cares for Monitors which i think rocks, and what i'm planning on is to have this room work for both the monitor and myself, I love asia and i love the jungles around there and this room will be facing my living room with a huge viewing section like at a zoo and i plan on spending the next year working on this, as for space that was a concern of mine and anything being designed is with the monitor in mind, for example the asian temple i was talking about actually isn't going to take up space in the sense of make less room. i'm making the wall look like an entrance into a temple the part of the "temple" that will be actually sticking out will be the pond, my water fall will have the pipes run up from behind the fake wall, and as for the tree it's actually going to be again part of the wall this room has a closet in it which i was going to use for the cave and the part of the closet that is right next to the door is going to be where the tree will be made up and climb up the wall and throughout the ceiling same with the rock formations they'll be part of the wall. I know this is going to cost a small fortune enough for me to probably buy a place in the indonesian islands and see wild water monitors near temples, lol. but i'm not going to half ass this and i'm really thinking of all aspects i can for the water monitors health and space needs. And FR thank you for your imput and you too Tec. I won't let any imformation go unnoticed.

In your first post, there was very little in what your really about. As we continue with this thread, it becomes a, fact finding mission. Which is what these threads really should be like. I learned a lot about you from your last post.

The fun is, there are no rules(its just right) In this last post, you presented what makes you happy. In the earlier posts, my concern for for living space for your monitor.

I get the feeling you understand, this is a genesis, that is a begining and nothing is set in stone(pun?)

Also, I think you understand, there are no rules restricting you to taking one approach, or another. That is, with only the monitor in mind, or only your dreams. The winning combination will include both.

With that said. If you were a Client and I was building this for you(I use to do this) I would draw up several different approaches. The first would be to include the imagines you placed in my mind. Then I would include giving the monitor as much usable space as possible. I would draw the vine covered temple, only it would be the entrance to the actual living quarters. That is, it would be mostly, but not entirely outside the cage. The opening in the temple, would lead to the interior, which is the actual cage itself. The space you mentioned is in my opinion, minimal for the species you chose. So I would not impact much actual living space. One side of the cage would be broken down walls from the temple, the other side would be leading out into the jungle. Parts of the side leading into the jungle would be a part of a small river with a large log disappearing out of site. This log would be a great basking site. This would be partly a real pond and partly a mural. The river has a little stream leading into it. This can include a small waterfall that appears thru windows in the temple. While its not actually in the cage, the stream from the waterfall drops into the pond in the cage, which is part of the river. The back of the cage is a mural of a jungle, thats slightly out of focus. As is the back parts of the ruins. This forces the viewers eyes to focus on the actual enclosure and the monitor in the enclosure.

Ok, so thats the first drawing, I can come up with many many more that are good for you and your monitor. Hows that? wasn't that fun? Cheers

Well again as you mentioned space is a big issue when it comes to building something for a lizard that can grow in excess of 7 feet and has a TON more requirements then a huge snake and i've been thinking about making the extreme sacrifice and actually using my Master bedroom as a setup for him, Right now that room is already devoted for my water and other reptiles so it's not like i'd really be missing out of a room, i sleep in my living room anyway. and my Master measures 14 1/2 x 12' that would give me plenty of room to be able to add a good size pond and the hallway that leads to the master i could, like you said turn into a archway that looks like a temple and really keep the space in the room. people must think i'm insane to devote my house this much to my reptiles but hey i live for my reptiles. and as for the tree i was alking about actually near by where i live is a place called fellerstone that deals with of course rocks and trees, roots and what have you. I go up there and get all my branches from there they sandblast them clean and you can get them any size shape and form i was actually going to create as much as i can out of natural materials, and if i go up there i can get branches they normally charge a couple hundred dollars for for like 15 bucks, it's great. I definately like the way your thinking with like design and concept, adds more views to an already difficult project which is actually a good thing i think. anyway off to more playing around in vectorworks, peace out!

I just grew up. That is, I learned tried to learn what animals needed. In that we still differ. You may believe that artificial things are somehow real. But animals not only don't think they are real, they don't care. For instance, As you may know, I have seen hundreds of monitors in nature. I did not go looking for monitors. I went looking for the situations they picked. In my experience and sir, thats all I got to go by. They picked homes based on feel, smell, and workability(is that a word?) For instance again, a burrow is not a hole thats constant. A burrow is a home that is worked and reworked on a daily basis. I enjoyed seeing ackies burrows in winter and summer. In summer, they would leave and come back. In winter, they worked the entrance and stayed very near the entrance. You could see, where they sat and watched outside the burrows. My guess, theres no suitable artificial dirt.

Same goes for wood dwellers. They work and rework their home areas. I know and understand how easy it is to make artificial wood. But have you made wood that can by worked by the inhabitats. I didn't think so. They know and understand the condition of wood, you know, if they can work it, by smell. Have you ever seen a monitor walk up to a hard solid piece of wood and start clawing. No I did not think so.

Yes you make vines or branches, but they do not smell right, You can make artificial logs and fill them with of all things like wood(sawdust, leaflitter, shavings, mulch, etc) But the question is why. When real of those things is easy to be had and its natural to the monitors. The realness is smell, feel, and the aging of the material. Its these things that make real materials better. I mean really, when is an artificial thing better then the real thing. I know, I would take a real waterfall anyday over an artificial one. How about you?

So no, its not about my failures. Its about your lack of sensitivity. Consider, I was doing artificial things, hmmmm before you were born. Its cool. But surely you understand its not real.

Consider, when I taught some of the people you worked for. They would say, oh man, we're making rocks or trees or people. I would say, no your not. Your only using materials like concrete, plastics, paint, etc, to create an illusion of wood, rock, trees, etc. Its never going to be that thing, only an illusion of that thing. Guess what, people are much easier to fool then animals.
Please don't give me, well I bred this like this or that. Common, get over it, After many thousand clutches, I do realize the weakness of what you say. In all reality, you can breed monitors in a trashcan. But then that is not the point is it.

So please consider, I have a valid approach, and its my task to express my approach, sir, your welcome to yours and your welcome to express your approach, thank you. Cheers