Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,
I am considering purchasing a Desert Horned Viper, however my parents will only let me purchase one if I have it "Devenomized" what are your thoughts/feelings on haveing this done. And if I were to have it done where would I got about having it done and approximately how much would it cost. Is it 100% effective? What is involved in the process, do they just remove the fangs of the animal?

Thank you for your time,
Ralph

Any help is greatly appreciated.

P.S. I know many of you will read this and think I'm just some dumb kid who wants to get a venemous snake so he can show it off to his friends, but in reality I am quite different. I have been taking care of reptiles since I was 8 years old, I'm 17 now. Currently I only own the animals in my signature but I have had EVERYTHING from Hedgehogs to softshelled turtles to snakes to frogs to ferrets to carniverous fish...all sorts of things. I consider myself a dedicated herpetoculturist just not dedicated enough to own a venemous snake that hasn't been de-fanged.

Also if there are any good threads which this has been previously discussed could you please point me out to them.

Again thanks for taking the time to read and reply I truly appreciate it.
-----
Ralph

1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

IS there anti-venom available for this species? Are their bites fatal or will it just ruin your week?

Thanks again and again!
Ralph
-----
Ralph

1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

Do I need a venemous license to own one of these snakes, even if it is de-venomized? What are the rules/laws reguarding that?

Sorry for all the posts I keep forgetting stuff, LOL I guess I'm just excited/anxious to get my hands on (NOT literally lol) one of these guys.

Please help me,
Ralph
-----
Ralph

1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

Ralph.

Since you live at home, Don't keep the snake.

I know it sounds corny , but here's my opinion:

De venomized snakes are unnatural, if you are, as you say, a "dedicated herpetoculturist" you'd leave the snake as it is (with the venom that is) The procedure of de venoming (or making the snake "venomoid" is more often than not performed by people with no medical papers whatsoever, besides, beeing a viperid, it needs the venom to digest it's prey, unlike some venomous species which can live without venom

Yes, this snake can be dangerous, and If I remember correctly some fatal bites are on it's account.

Here's what I would do in yous situation (and this is exactly what I've done myself )

Wait, just wait untill you move out, and get a house of your own.
In this way, you still heve a few years to "practice with other animals. If you still want to keep venomous snakes when you are , say, 22 DO IT! "

BUT, and here's a downer..... I'd start with snakes native to your area, in that case, if you are to be bitten, there's antivenom available. If you are bitten by an exotic species obtaining A V can be quite a challenge, even for a hospital.

Then, after a few years of keeping small venomous snakes you might be able to move on to diffrent and exotic species such as the horned viper, of cobra's for instance.

I've been keeping venomous snakes for little over 2 years now, I've been keeping small rattlers and copperhaeds in that period, I recently bought an Aspidelaps, as a "starter Elapid""

If you have any other questions, just ask

Cheers,

Peter

This name can refer to about five different kinds of snakes. Mostly the various small horned Bitis and Cerastes Cerastes. Bites from the reall tiny Bitis aren't supposed to be that serious. Bites from Cerastes will ruin your fingers at least, if not your week. You'd probably have some sort of decent chance of living through it. There is AV for Cerastes. They are quite easy to keep, especially if you can find a CB or healthy LTC. The WC's can come in rather rough. They hook like greased kittens. Wait until you're 18. The venomoid issue is kind of null here because I've never seen a venomoid horned viper for sale, people usually don't bother with the small ones.

For me the "desert horned viper" is in fact Cerastes cerastes, but I assume you were asking Ralph

Another downpoint on making this species a venomoid is that smaller animals have more negative effects on the anesthetics (if they use any...) There is a good chance of the snake remaining dead after surgery.

(Besides, in my opinion, there are no good things about a venomoid, except for the fact is once used to be a snake )

Cheers,

Peter

It's just that a lot of times when I've posted about a 'desert horned viper' people assumed I was talking about a Bitis. It's good to be exact with these things because they all look so similar (but the Bitis jump!)
To the original poster: Maybe in a few years I can sell you some of my offspring... counting my eggs before I own a female, eh?

Hey guys, thanks for the replies I really appreciate it. I was talking about Cerastes Cerastes, I should have been more specific, my apologies. After doing some research that I should have done before I posted I learned that the Vipers need their Venom in order to digest their prey and I also learned that venomoids undergo some strenuious and brutal surgery that sounds both very painful and very un-natural to me. So being the dedicated herper that I am I will wait until I am 18 and then get my license.

Peter,
I think I will b taking your advice and starting off with a copperhead or timber rattlesnake (Venemous locals) for a year or two and after I work with those species then maybe I will get into the more exotic Vipers. (Man I really love those Vipers! )

Thanks again and I will be lurking around here asking questions every now and then, and I'll be looking out for those off-spring!

P.S. Would it be possible for someone to give me a list of scietific names of the other horned Vipers such as the Bitis? I would be most grateful.

Thank you,
Ralph
-----
Ralph

1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

I'm not tha familliar with Bitis, I suggest you search trough some books, those with titles as: "Venomous snakes of afrika" etc contain information about the bitis species, you can assume that every desert snake with horns or enlarged scales above the eye will be calles a "desert horned viper" by laypeople

Good luck with ownig a venomous snake (I'd start with a copperhead) I'm also glad to hear you did your research on venomoids

Bye,
Peter

Bitis caudalis, Bitis worthingtoni, Bitis corunuta, Bitis worthingtoni i think... Most of those snakes are ALSO known as the 'Namaqua dwarf adder' and I'm personally terminally confused by the nomenclature. One of these is the smallest venomous snake in the world. Rodent feeding might be a problem with some of them. Pseudocerastes persica, the false horned viper.. the horned rattlesnake, Crotalus cerastes... Then there are the tropical eyelash vipers Bothriechis and Atheris. You'll also find Cerastes cerastes' livebearing hornless cousin, Cerastes vipera for sale.
Cerastes are easier to find than the little Bitis, and more is known about their care. And egg-laying vipers are just cool, almost as cool as egg-laying boas.

You were saying that you would keep some local venomous before getting into the expcits as "snakeman" suggested. You metioned the Timber Rattlesnake in there somewhere. If I remember correctly, I believe that the Timber is one of the more toxic of rattlers. Besides, just about everywhere they are located there are strict guidelines to keeping them. As fa as familiaizing yourself with the Cerastes cerastes, try getting a rock rattler, or one of the smaller varieties. The Cerastes cerastes are quite boing as far as activity goes. My former roomate had 2 of them and they basically just burrow and sit 24 hours a day. The timber is awfully big comparitively as well. Like I said, get either a copperhead (not lethal if bitten WITHOUT AV, or a smaller rattlesnake. The AV you would get if bitten is the same for all NA rattler species.

Thanks
Todd Evans

Todd,
Thank you for the reply, much appreciated. After re-considering again I think I will be going with a copperhead first, and then a smaller Rattler like you suggested. I realize that the C. Cerastes are kinda boring as all they do is burrow, but man do those horns look sweet. It's just something about theme that gets me all riled up lol! I wish they weren't venemous so I could handle 'em. (I'm writing this as my Desert Kingsnake is laying currled up inside of my T-shirt lol shes just so tame!)

Thanks again to everyone for all the reply's.

P.S. I posted this in the venemous forum but is it really that difficult to get a venemous permit in NY?
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

To answer your question, no, it's not that difficult to get a permit in NYS, yet, unless you're a minor. However, your chance of getting a timber rattlesnake is zero, not to mention I wouldn't recommend one for a starter hot. The DEC has very strict guidelines for keeping horridus and s.c. catenatus, it's not like getting your VRI, the ESP is getting increasingly difficult to acquire. I also have to mention that there are areas in NY that have their own laws regarding hots, you have to check them out on the local and city levels, not just the state.

Sure they sit around a lot, but when they do stuff, it's awesome! Mine will curiously follow a finger around (the finger being outside the cage of course), he gets very active when hungry, and he showed this baffling behavior during his feeding strike last winter that I'm still trying to figure out. He'd kill a mouse, then meticulously remove all the sand out from under it until it was sitting on the bottom surface of the cage. Then he would just stare at it. I also think it's fun observing his different feeding tactics given what sort of prey he gets (he's on f/t for now), and.. he um... thermoregulates! Yeah! My rattler moves around a lot more, but she's so nervous that I can't really observe her natural behavior So the horned adder, however low key, is more interesting to me.

This is all coming from someone who thinks sand boas are just the most exciting snake out there (look! I think I saw it move!) so I guess I have a low threshold .

As a note to the original poster, if you like horns and want a native hot, you may want to energetically inquire into sidewinders. I'm thinking of getting one myself sometime.

That is a pretty false statement..... There have been documented cases of fatalities..... I dont know why everyone downplays copperheads..... Most of the time you will not die as a result of a bite but you can not say they can not be deadly.....

If you get bitten... just go get it treated! It's venom, for jeebus' sake... I personally value my limbs almost as much as my life...

I was of course making a comparison with the timber he had mentioned. Comparitively, the copperhead is a less serious bite (although still serious) In the context of the discussion, he had been advised to keep a local species, due to the availability of AV. I was in no way intending on downplaying the Copperhead's bite at all, a bite is a bite, venom is venom, but once again, comparitively.................also the size issue as well. A Northern Copperhead is much more similar to the DHV than the Timber. But don't assume I'm saying that they are the same as teh DHV at all.....just MORE SIMILAR.

I will always suggest to people to get a bad tempered non-venomous snake or a mildly venomous snake that is similar to their goal snake. To get familiar with the way's that they move, hook, etc. If he wanted a large puff adder for instance, I wouldn't tell him to get an eyelash viper. I was just saying that as farr as his goal goes of owning a DHV, the copperhead would be a better choice than the timber, and "chances" are, it won't kill you if bitten.

Anyway.....

Todd Evans

Thank you for all the replies, they have been very insightful and informative. I truly appreciate it. I think what I will do is wait until I'm 18 or older to start off with hots and once I start I will probably start off with a copper head and then move on to the more exotic (Probably the Desert horned viper Cerastes Cerastes)...Thanks again!

P.S. If I get bit..the first place I'll be is at the hospital getting treated!
-----
1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

As with any venomous species, you have to develope a saftey protocol, then with NO execptions stick with the protocol, absolutely no execptions. consider fatique, partying, how much time you need to allocate, then write it up for your self, as a reminder--and stick with it always. simple mental judgements that following these protocols, can almost with 100% certianly can prevent a accident--the simple notion that to not get bit is to not present yourself as a target is a tureism, tools, and technique make the inherant risk relative minor it's that bad hair day forboth you and the snakes, that you have to have the accumulated knowledge of text, and experience to overcome-safely. And contrary to popular belief your favorite T.V personalities are not exactly handling role models-- act like Steve Irwin, with your animals, then no amount of AV will save you.
My .02 cents with some change.
Barry

Although the copperhead pite cetianly is not something you would want to endure, throgh out recorded medical history, no one has EVER died as the direct result of the bite of a copperhead ( agkistrodon ) in North America, I have NEVER seem or heard of such things aside from the mythes, and voodoo always attributed venom snakes from the uninformed. I would need to see paperwork that CLEARLY states was the bite not a heart attack 3 weeks later or allergic reaction to av administered, that was the venom action--nothing the doctors did that resulted in the death. The answer is you won't find this paperwork because it don't exist. If by some miracleyou cab=n generate it, I will certianly eat my share of crow, till then I will stand on my statement. To be sure, it would be ill advised to allow your self to be bitten by the copperhead, as while death to say is remote possibility, is understatement, is generous, but the necrotic effects are still quite painful, and tissue destruction, can be quite extensive, resulting amputations are always possible, so again nothing to sneeze at.
Barry

I agree 110% I've been keeping hots for 4-5 years luckly my parents were very lenient. Anyways I have kept rattlesnakes, cotton mouths and one eastern coral. When I tried to get a gaboon and a rhino they wouldnt let one in their house. So instead I made a deal with them that while in their house the only venomous species I will keep are ones that do not pose an immediate threat if bitten and luckly I listened because about 1-2 years ago I was bitten by a wild caught Crotalus v. Oreganus. Since that time I have learned a great deal about venomous species and learned a new respect. Anyways my point is start with maybe a pigmy rattler or a copperhead once you get on your own and while @ your parents house just study up and gather all the info you can so you will be ready and wont have to take something away from these snake that nature intended them to have. Best of luck.

Jeremy

I'm not to fund of the whole venomoid thing, but I do know where you can get venomoids. Try going to an expo. Where do you live? I was at the last Hamburg PA show and they had some venomoids there. Oh yeah, the snakes face is gonna look different. They had a venomoid copperhead and its face looked awful and had these two gaps. I'm not sure how potent their venom is, but I know a copperheads venom is lees potent and that there hasn't been a recorded case of a human fatality from a copperhead. I'm not saying copperheads can't kill you, but their venom is not too lethal and they are a very good starter venomous snake and are pretty docile by nature. There's an article on copperheads in the august issue or Reptiles magazine, so that could help you out. If you tell your parents about a copperhead they might say yes. If they say no to anything other than a venomoid then maybe you should wait till your out of the house and able to get a venomous snake. If you still want a venomoid then make sure you get it from someone who knows what they are doing so the surgery on the face doesn't look bad and you can make sure the venom glands won't grow back. And also expect to pay up to double the price of the snake for the surgery. I higly recomed that you wait untill your out of the house so you can get a real venomous snake, cause a venomoid isn't gonna be as fun. Good Luck.