Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got my first Saharran Uro today. I hope the picture shows up from my webcam! Anyhow, I got him from a breeder at a reptile show here in Canada and I'm extremely happy with the little bugger

My question is regarding temp. Everywhere I have read it states that a basking spot up to 120F and nightime of approx. 70 are suitable. But, this doesn't take into account any seasons that occur naturally in the wild. For example, right now in sahara or Egypt the weather is approx 80F in the day and 58F in the night (Winter Cond). So, I'm wondering if a basking temp of 120F all year round is something that's really needed???

Congrats on your new uro!

Your best bet is to do a search for uromastyx brumation everywhere you can think to look. For now, stay with the generally recommended temps: basking of 120F, ambient warm area of 100F, cool side 85F.

Next winter you can choose whether you want to do a brumation with him based on LOTS of reading now. If it's not done right or the uro isn't 100% healthy, you can lose him, so it's important to read up.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

Yup, acclimating these guys and even learning the routine yourself is complex enough that you're really playing with fire. First goal is to get it comfortable and healthy.

Lowering temperatures in an attempt to emulate an environment you've already removed the animal from doesn't add up to a lot. Not enough heat can easily result in digestive problems and pneumonia-like symptoms (among other things), both of which require attention.

If the animal doesn't want to be warm it'll sleep elsewhere and pickup the heat when it needs it so long as it's there (assumign your cage is setup adequately). If there's an absence, there's no possibility.
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uromastyx geyri (Saharan/Nigerian), hardwickii (Indian),
macfadyeni (Somalian), ocellata (Sudanese), ornata (Ornate), benti pseudophilbyi

Sounds like pretty sound advice. I seem to only get 104F on the rock I have placed under the light. It may have something to do with the wire light fixture (no surrounding reflector around the bulb). It's a T-Rex UV 100W Heat bulb (murcury vapor). Maybe I should get a 160W instead to bump it up. I tried tinfoil around the fixture with little difference and I'm using a 15gal tank so I'm 12in above the rock. I'll get it soon.

A 15 gal tank is way to small for a Uro. Please look into a larger cage or proper basking temp will be the least of your worries.
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)(Doug Dix)
0.0.1 Mali
0.1 Weimaraner

The absolute smallest suitable tank for a Uromastyx is a 40 gallon breeder tank, and bigger is always better. In a 15 gallon tank you will not be able to achieve the proper temperature gradient, because not only is the 120 degree basking spot important, but the 80-90 degree cool side is equally as important! Otherwise your Uro cannot thermoregulate. Putting the little tyke in a 15 gallon tank is similar to putting you in a sauna with no way out, only bad things can come of it. If buying a bigger tank is not immediately feasible, many people have had some luck using very large tupperware tubs (easily under $20 US) (the really big storage kind), until they can get or make something that is prettier for us people.

Getting your Uro out of the 15 gallon tank though, should be an immediate priority.

Welcome to the forum though, there is a lot of knowledge and experience lurking about!!

Elizabeth

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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine (RIP)
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

Nice to have you here with us! Lots of people already jumped in to welcome you, and help you with your question, as you can see theres a great bunch here

Congratulations on your new saharan , They are beautiful uros, I have a male, had him for 6 years or so, neat guy with some very nice orange.

Just wanted to say glad your here!
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PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

120F for your basking temp is what i would consider to be a MINIMUM. keepers need to understand the difference between surface temps and air temps. a temp gun is an invaluable tool for measuring these important temps, and putting together a proper setup.

check out this pic. this is from here in Denver, Colorado, and the air temp outside was in the mid 70's. the surface temp of the ground, where an animal would be basking, is 126F.

we have pulled 160F on days where it is actually HOT outside, in the mid 90's.

consider in their natural habitat, with air temps in the 90's or even 100's, how hot the rock, wood and basking surfaces ACTUALLY ARE.

this is a widely misunderstood aspect of lizard husbandry.

monitor keepers have done temps in Australia and Indo, using temp guns and actually temping out the very basking spots that they found monitors using, and they read temps commonly 140F, 150F, and up! that initial insight years ago was what opened the eyes of a lot of monitor keepers, and led us to correct what was actually horrible husbandry.

that lack of understanding continues with other monitor keepers, uro keepers, certainly bearded keepers, and most other lizard keepers.

we use 130F-160F basking surface temps for our breeder Uros and babies as well. 120F would be an absolute minimum.

oh, and we can pull 160F temps using regular Home Depot bought, 45 watt Halogen floodlights, which are all of $4 each. it is all about a proper setup, an elevated basking spot and the right bulb choice. if you are using a bulb bigger than 100w, there is something wrong with your setup, it is just not necessary, and as hot as those 150w, 200w, and 250 watt bubls get, it is a potential fire catastrophe.

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thank you all for your advice. I guess I should explain a little further. My guy is a juvi (5" and a 15 is suitable at this point. By summer I will get a 40gal breeder tank. I should use an infrared sensor for the basking temp, but at this time I do not have that. Where could I buy a decent one?

I'm also very curious about substrate. I'm finding a lot of all over the place information and I'm currently using walnut shell. I was told by the breeder that washed playsand would be fine but I'm thinking maybe I'll just stick repticarpet or birdseed. I just don't like the idea of him eating sand. I had a snake in walnut and sometimes had a problem because he would get the walnut shrapnal in his mouth and it was hard for him. So i'm still iffy on that. Has anyone figured out a good substrate without all the debate?

Shawn

Also, I got 107F leaving my temp sensor sitting on the rock (the one with the wire and prob on the end - digital readout). I would think this would be acceptable for a basking spot. I've had him for 24hrs now and he has not come out once since going into his hide. There is no proof of him walking in the sand from when I left this morning. I'm going to leave him for a few days to see what happens. I'm worried for the little guy. I like him too much already.

Shawn

Regardless of the size of the animal, a 15 is not appropriate for a uro at any time. It's not a matter of floor space or animal size, it's a matter of temperatures - it's impossible to get appropriate temperatures in a space that small.

And that's the next issue - temps. It's good that you have a digital probe thermometer. They're infinitely better than those awful, little plastic dial things. But 107 is frankly not going to work for your uro. It MUST have basking temps at least 120, or it won't be able to digest its food properly, and you'll end up with a sick uro. It also must have a cool end as low as 85 - hence the problem with the 15. Tank size and temps go hand in hand.

You've had the guy for just a day, so it's not unusual for it to still be hiding. **However**, with inappropriate temps, he may never come out at all.

You can ask for a simple answer on substrate, but there isn't one. One thing for certain, though, your thoughts on the walnut shell are correct - it's trouble! Reptile carpet is a very safe choice. I use millet currently. If your uro is longer than 6", it should be fine with millet or carpet, but get the shells out of there.

If you get the temperatures and tank size sorted out, your little one should come out in a few days. Let us know how it goes.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

Thanks so much El Toro,

I just got back from the store and I picked myself up a 40gal Breeder tank. One thing I realize from your letter is that maybe I should get the Murcury Vapor bulb that is 160watt vs. the 100watt I have now. Would you thing this to be a correct move for the next step. I will also got to a bulk store and pick up some millet.. I'm convinced that is the way to go. I couldn't imagine the feeling of them accidentally eating sand. And already, I've seen my little guy sticking out his tongue tasting things he may think is food. So I'm going to stay away from the play sand. How many inches would you suggest I use of millet in the tank. I've also read a little that it's hard for them to walk around in if it's deep.. Kind of like ourselves walking on beach sand. I thought of even adding some natural fish tank rubble. If I do use the reptile carpet, does that matter with his happiness? I have slates of really nice rock for basking spots and some natural hides. I'm going also place a fake plant or two just to give him some shade and business to the tank for stimulation. So I'll do that and possibly get the 160watt UV-Heat bulb if you agree that is good. I can just exchange it. Thanks in advance, you've been a great help.

Shawn

Good for you for getting out there and getting the cage!

You might switch to the higher wattage bulb, or you might choose to add another fixture with a regular flood bulb, OR you can experiment with covering the top of the cage to help hold in the heat. You will have to do some fussing before you get it just right.

I keep the millet to about a half inch or a little more. They can easily reach the floor of the cage, plus mine have lots of rocks and wood to climb on, too. Personally, I'd avoid the fish gravel for the same reasons you want to avoid the sand. And as long as there are several places for them to hide, uros seem to do just fine on carpet, too. There is no best substrate, and there are LOTS of options. Start with something easy - you can keep reading and learning, and maybe decide to try something different later on down the line.

Be very careful if you add plants to the enclosure - real or fake, uros sometimes try to eat them.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

Congratulations on going out and getting the bigger tank, your Uro will love you for it, and you will love him much longer!! So many new keepers think we are all joking, and then end up with a very sick, or dead Uro. Your new friend is very lucky to have found such a caring parent!

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine (RIP)
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

If you choose to use millet, make sure to freeze it thoroughly first. You DO NOT want a moth outbreak like I experienced several years ago on the bird seed substrate. Frankly, I felt as though the Uros were consuming too much indigestable millet at the expense of more beneficial eats. We keep babies on paper but, by 6 months of age, feel perfectly comfortable with play sand that has been washed & screened.

I set up my tank with the bird seed. The first thing he does....He decides to tast some.. Starting eating it and took a few chomps. I hooked up a 160w bulb and I have a flat rock raised so that it's approx 10" from the bulb. So far the surface temp of the rock (verified with infrared) is 97F. So I'm hoping it will climb up further. I may even add an undertank heater for that half of the tank to further increase the temp and possibly lay tinfoil on the top screen aroudn the light fixture to prevent heat from escaping so quickly. We'll see. I just want my guy in ideal conditions as soon as possible.

Shawn

If you are not reaching 120 with a 160W bulb, I bet your flat rock is light-colored or very porous.

You would be much better off with a dark-colored, smooth, flat rock, which would absorb most of the heat. I get very good results with a 100W bulb 12" from a large, flat, dark brick-red rock. The temps easily hit 120 deg with this setup within a 4x2 foot (75G tank) uncovered enclosure.

Be careful with that 160W bulb on a rock like this, though, as it could turn it into a Uro grill

-Felix

we have raised Ornates from hatchlings to productive adult breeders in 14 months, and we start with 10 and 20 gallon tanks

you can get the proper temps for the setup, if you understand some important details. number one is using an elevated basking spot. we have basking spots of 120-130F and ambient temps in the mid 80's, all in a 10 gallon cage. using the Retes Stacks for basking, there are multiple hides in the cage, and the baby Uros grow terrifically

in these setups, we use regular household bulbs, typically 45 watt. we have never used any full spectrum lighting, but we always use a good supplement.

we use these same setups for monitor babies, including Water monitors, a much bigger lizard than a Uro. lizard hatchlings of all types do really well in those small, basic cages.

can you go larger, of course, but can you do it well smaller? definitely
click here for Pro Exotics FAQ on Retes Basking Stacks

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Of course, anything is *possible* to do. I just question the wisdom of announcing the success of raising younguns in such tiny cages in a newbie thread. If you have the right equipment, knowledge, and understanding, sure it's possible to do. I wouldn't be comfortable trying it. But you're also in a major breeding operation, so it's sort of a necessity to maximize your space.

But telling someone who's very new, with no real understanding of temperature gradients, that you raise hatchlings in 10 and 20 gallon tanks is asking for misinterpretation. Confused people will put much larger uros into a 10 gallon tank with no retes stack and say, "Well, Robyn does it and said it's ok!" They may never click the link in your post to find out more.

I think it's great that you are trying new things and experimenting with husbandry. I hope you keep posting with your information and results. But I also would hope that you make it clear that your situation is rather different from the average keeper - especially for people just joining the forum who don't know who you are. This is just me wanting to keep things clear so new folk won't misunderstand what you're saying.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

What the heck is a rete stack

click the link in Robyn's post. It will give you all the information you need. In the simplest terms, plywood seperated by 2x2's in a stack. very very good basking site/hiding spots.

Robyn clearly described the use of those smaller tanks for only hatchlings, and with retes stacks to provide a hot basking spot with a good temperature gradient. Anyone that can't determine that from his well-written post shouldn't be allowed to own reptiles PERIOD. If they can't use enough common sense to house an adult uromastyx in a large enough enclosure, it's not going to matter if they think Robyn said it was okay or not. My rescued mali uromastyx is about 13" long, and she was kept in a 10 gallon tank, so I know the kind of person that would do such a thing. Like I said before...THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO KEEP REPTILES.

Sorry, but I take things like that very seriously. don't try to protect the ignorant, because they'll do what they want to do regardless of what people say.

you can find more info on Temp Guns at our site, there is a link below

as for substrates, a good diggable soil is far and away the best substrate you can offer, but it is not the simplest.

simple may benefit you, but it does not benefit your Uro. you can read more about substrates and soil mixes at our site's FAQ. we use the same soils for monitors, uros, gilas, snakes and more.

i would never use a carpet, and walnut shells as a substrate should be illegal.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I'm completely overwhelmed by all of this. I'm concerned about the bird seed at this point. I don't want to use sand because I feel that wouldn't be a great idea also. I'm thinking of using carpet at this point with foilage and hidespots. I'm worried he will eat too much birdseed and not eat good food as well as get dehydrated because the birdseed soaks up any water inside of him while on it's way out. Such a difficult decision and I'm also having quite the difficult time to get this tank to 120F at the basking spot. It's at the point now that I have this 160W murcury vapor bulb 8in from the rock and it's only 110F with tinfoil around the light covering half of my 40gal breeder. I can't cover the complete tank and have no circulation at all... I'm puzzled as to what to do. It just all seems too difficult. There must be an easier way... If he's eating birdseed within 10minutes that is concern for worry. I'm sure he isn't chewing them... so it is equivilent to eating air. No?

Shawn

Sorry that you're having so many issues come up, but relax-- people here will help you out. I'm no expert, but I will add my two cents on the issues you had posted. As far as substrate goes, I think that no matter what you use, someone else will tell you that it's wrong. I use sand, mainly because I like the looks, it's easy to clean, and most importantly, because my friend that has had a uro for years has used it without incident. I think the only universally agreed upon point with substrates is that you should NEVER used crushed walnut shells. As far as eating the bird seed, it shouldn't be an issue as long as you're also providing plenty of fresh fruit and veggies.

On the light issue, that's a pretty large light and I would think that you should be able to get the temperature up to and beyond what is needed. Only advice I can offer there is that you might want to purchase a fixture with an aluminum reflector to put it in. Sure hope this helps and that more experienced people chime in to help you out as well.

JR

Have you met Bruce? http://www.brucelizard.com
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With a light that big you should be blasting that uro with heat, esp if its 8in from the basking spot. What is your basking spot made of? Try using a piece of slat or a flat rock that will absorb the heat. I use a 75 watt tight beam light bulb made by exxo terra and easily achieve 120-130 in my uro cages. Its mostly because I elevate them about 6in and use thick pieces of flat rock w/ a nice piece of slat on the top. its all about the basking spot, not just the light. hope this helps.

-Nathanael

If you're having a tough time with heat, there's a few things you can do. If you find the basking spot isn't getting up to temp (but the ambient air temp is where it should be), try switching basking rocks. Slate rock gets very hot to the touch and can be used as a basking spot. If you're ambient temp is also too low, you can add an infra-red heat bulb to work in combination with your mercury vapour one. Uros don't see the red light but they'll feel the heat coming from it. I get all my bulbs (except for mercury vapour and UV bulbs of course) from Home Depot. They're better and cheaper.
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1.1 Mali Uromastyx (Ra, Isis)
1.0 Satanic Leaf-tail Gecko (Diablo)
0.1 Satanic Leaf-tail Gecko (R.I.P. Samael)

Thank you everyone for your help. My main concern at this point is temperature. I'm going to experiment and try to get the temps up in the cage. I think that having the 40gal now that there is a huge gradient in temperature. I'm confident I can get 110F under the light but on the cool end the temp is at 70F! I'm positive they don't have such a gradient in the wild. So I think at this point to experiment with a cover on half the tank or 3/4 of the tank on the basking side, may do it. Although it will make it that much more difficult to access him. I'll figure something out. I've also thought of maybe even adding one of the adhesive heat pad to the bottom of the basking side may also help to heat up the basking spot as well as the tank in whole. Or, I could add a second light that is meant as a spot (vs. flood UV) and have them on a timer so that the UV is only on for 6hrs a day and then the spot being on for 12hrs (3hrs before and after the UV) to somehow simulate the strong midday sun UV exposure that tapers off. All my little bugger is doing is sleeping. He managed to eat a little bit of dandylion weed and bok choy that i lightly dusted. And also tried some of the seed I have as the substrate. I think the main problem is that here in Canada, lets face it, is cold! At night I naturally turn the heat down to save on cost. During the day the heat is also set to about 60F. So with the temperature in the room being quite cool and the light being on and the simple physics of convection. The heat is just escaping quickly (hence the idea of adding a matt so that heat will also come from the bottom.

What does everyone think?

Shawn

First I want to say again, way to go on making such a great environment for your Uro. Second take a deep breath you are making great changes.

My theory on temperature gradient is that as long as you have a hot enough basking spot, and warm side, it really is a secondary concern how cool the cool side gets. The Uro just won't go on that side of the tank if it is too cold, and as long as you have hides on both sides he can choose whichever he likes. You are also probably making the lighting too complicated. At least to start I set the UVB, and all other lights to run for about 12 hours a day. When I lived in WI I did leave a red heat light on on the warm side of the tank at night to keep it from getting too cool, because of similar concerns. Be careful with the spot MVB, I seem to remember someone saying that some of them had a spot in the very middle that wasn't glazed or textured teh same way oas the rest of the light and so created a sngle point that got significantly hotter than the rest of the basking area, and this caused some Uro burns. Just look at the light though and make sure that it looks the same throughout the surfce I believe.

I had to take my Uro off the millet because he was eating it instead of his food, however I think it is normal for them to eat it somewhat as long as they still eat their normal food. He is still new and getting used to his new digs, so I would expect him to hide for a bit.

Keep asking questions, you are doing great!
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes (May he rest in peace)
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine (RIP)
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

the answers to your setup problems have been posted, you are either not reading, not comprehending, or being overwhelmed by the amount of responses

read carefully:

we pull 160F basking spots using 45 WATT HALOGEN FLOODLIGHTS from Home Depot (or Lowe's, or Ace Hardware, etc). you don't need mega watt lights. you don't need reptile brand lights.

reptile brand lights tend to be very high wattage, but throw really poor heat. just use the Halogen flood bulbs (NOT the spot bulbs).

and the REAL "TRICK" is to use an elevated basking spot. don't install a 1000 watt bulb, just elevate your basking spot more toward the bulb. in our smaller setups, the top of our wood basking stacks is just 2 or 3 inches from the bulb. you can certainly get it within 6 inches if you just try.

check out the link below about the Retes Stacks, and apply is to your setup.

the answers are right here, best of luck : )
click here for PE FAQ on Retes Basking Stacks

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thank you very much robyn. I will try the halogen 45W flood. What about UV? I have read that flourescent isn't strong enough. What do you use?

Thanks

Shawn

we have bred a number of lizard species, monitors, gilas, uros and more, and we never use full spectrum/uvb lighting.

it is simply not necessary. we DO use a good supplement in the diet, but no fancy bulbs. other lizard breeders have bred double digit generations of lizards without full spectrum lighting as well.

full spectrum lighting won't hurt the animals, you can use it if you like, but the bulbs are crazy expensive, they don't last long, the usable uvb output has a very short life, it is not effective at all more than a few inches away from the bulb, and they throw notoriously poor heat when compared to a Halogen flood.

those fancy pants uvb bulbs work very poorly as a basking source, don't rely on them for your primary heat, if you choose to use them
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thank you Robyn, what you're saying makes complete sense. However the UV bulb I have stats that they are good up to 600hrs of usable UV rays. It has been studied that flourescent UV bulbs barely output anything. Well, I do have saltwater fish and corals and they require UV that I get from a metal halide bulb. And this is good for approx 6 months as the manufacturer suggests. I notice a bloom of algae when my bulbs get bad because of the certain colour of light that they produce when the gasses have burned off inside the bulb. If you do go with UV I have read that MV bulbs are the only usefull bulb. I think I will definatly go with your experience and use the halogen. But, I would rather pay the $60 every six month for my guy just to know that he is getting benificial UV rays when needed. The light that they produce is more simulated to sunlight (not near as intense as the actual sun) than other types of bulbs which may lead to a better mental health for my little bugger.

I have also decided to buy a 50# bag of washed sand.

Thanks again Robyn

Shawn

Robyn,
I'm curious about the non-use of full spectrum lighting.If you aren't using any UVA/B lighting do you expose them to natural sunlight? You mentioned that all you use is a good suppliment. I'm assuming you mean calcium/D3. How do you know what is the correct amount to give with out overdosing or defficiency? At least with the use of the full spectrum lights the animal can regulate it's own exposure to the UV.
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1.1 U.maliensis
2.1 U.geyri
1.1 U ornatus
0.1 U. macfadyeni