Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just doing a little pre-planning for what I hope will be an early retirement. My wife is from Az so that seems to be the top choice at the moment (although I personally like TX's wide open herp laws). Does anyone know the current venomous law situation in Arizona or Nevada? I think someone mentioned that AZ will allow native venomous but not exotic; not sure though. New Mexico and Colorado are still in the running too...any place warmer than 20 deg F sounds good at the moment! Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob:

AZ is restrictive even with native hots, MAYBE with your credentials you can get a permit for non-native venomous but I would not count on it.

Colorado is okay for Native but a permit is required for Non-native Hots, see above. Not very warm there either.

NM is wide open so far... no permits for either.

Best,

Al
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Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.

Hey Rob,

I live in NM...great state for herping. Currently, there are no state laws regarding venomous, exotic or native (with the exception of our two protected Crotes, C. l. lepidus and C. willardi obscurus. However, various municipalities and counties have ordinances in place restricting or banning private possession. Here in Dona Ana County, one must have a rehabilitators or educators license (shouldn't be a problem for you) to keep hots (with the exception of non-lethal rear-fanged species. Let me know if you are ever heading down this way.

Abhishek Prasad

How about heloderma suspectum in NM? They are protected species right??
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Chris Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps

Heloderma are federally protected, so yes...just like everywhere else, you would need a permit certifying they were captive bred.

Just to clarify, besides Federally, Gilas are also protected in every state it is native to including New Mexico so you would need a New Mexico permit for Gila monsters.

AZ allows take of 4 of each open season Crotalus and the Coral in state on a hunting license. Except for zoos, etc. No non-native hots, including Beadeds. No hot may be imported, even if it is native. The only Gila permits allowed for the private sector are for education, and comes with a lot of requirements and reports.
NV allows for possession of native hots, but no non-native hots. Allows Beadeds but not Gilas.
Gilas are federally protected only under the Lacey Act. ESA does not protect Gilas, and CITIES is Appendix II, same as Green Iguanas, Boa Constrictors, etc.
AZ is great if the open season Crots and Corals are enough for you. If not, Texas is the place to be.

Actually NM has a law on the books that states
"Any exotic venomous animals brought into the state must be venomoid AND checked by a state vet."
There are others also. Like the take of venomous reptiles is regulated by a small game liscence. This does not exist except as an out of state liscence. Or any exotic reptile must be ok'd by committee. This one is great as they simply ignore all other exotics until it becomes a problem. So if your neighbor complains, expect USGF at your door.
NM keeps these laws vague and kind of hidden. The ONLY exception seems to be the rattlesnake roundups and this is written in to NM law. See Below. This is from Lexus Nexus and the current NM F&G laws.

19.35.7.13 IMPORTATION OF NON-GAME WILDLIFE: Any applicant requesting an import permit for non-game wildlife must submit the following information with the application:

A. A containment or confinement plan indicating where and how the species will be maintained;

B. A certificate from an accredited veterinarian that each animal and/or rearing facility has been inspected and is in good general health, disease free and that each animal or rearing facility tests disease free for any specific disease listed on the application and following the testing procedures provided with the application;

C. Proof from the pertinent County and City where the animal will reside that possession or release of the animal is allowed;

D. Copies of USDA or United States Fish and Wildlife Service exhibitor or breeder permits if required;

E. Certification from an accredited veterinarian that any venomous reptile has been de-venomized.

19.35.10.8 TAKE:

A. It is unlawful for any person to take free-ranging, native amphibians and reptiles in New Mexico for commercial purposes without purchasing and having in possession a valid commercial collecting permit. In addition, nonresidents must purchase and also have in their possession a nonresident hunting license listed in Section 17-3-13 NMSA 1978 required by law for the year in which the taking is done.

B. It is unlawful to take all free-ranging, native amphibians and reptiles species that are Federal or State listed as threatened or endangered.

C. Exceptions:

(1) When there is an emergency situation involving an immediate threat to human life or private property, rattlesnakes may be captured, removed, or destroyed without a permit.

(2) No permit is necessary for take of free-ranging, native amphibians and reptiles for the purpose of rattlesnake roundups, fish bait, or lizard races. A commercial collecting permit is required when these species are taken for a commercial purpose.

(3) All other species of snake (other than rattlesnakes) collected and displayed for rattlesnake roundups shall not be bought, sold, or traded unless the person collecting such snakes is in possession of a commercial take permit.

(4) Amphibians and reptiles held in captivity prior to July 1, 2001 and their progeny are not subject to these regulations.

[19.35.10.8 NMAC - N, 10-31-01]

A. All species, except for those collected in rattlesnake roundups, for fish bait or for lizard races, of native, free-ranging amphibians and reptiles are hereby classified as protected nongame animals for commercial taking purposes. The commercial taking or capturing of native, free-ranging amphibians and reptiles is prohibited except by a permit issued by the state game commission.

OH and there is no such thing as a permit to keep Gilas in NM. They are illegal as they occur in this state. The state has no intention or will to change this. The permit simply does not exist.

David Furphy
AKN Venom & Exotics

you say
"AZ allows take of 4 of each open season Crotalus and the Coral in state on a hunting license.
AZ is great if the open season Crots and Corals are enough for you"

So are you saying it is legal with a small game hunting license in az?

When is the season open and close date?

What are your sources?
I ask since I thought take was year round (if you can find them) and have been told you dont need a license.

I still think the easiest way to get hots is to recieve a "gift"

Sincerly
PatrickR

See AZ here:

http://www.azgfd.com/pdfs/h_f/herp_regs.pdf

"AZ allows take of 4 of each open season Crotalus and the Coral in state on a hunting license.
AZ is great if the open season Crots and Corals are enough for you"

So are you saying it is legal with a small game hunting license in az?

Yes and no. The permit allows you for the calender year to collect a certain number of each Crotalus species (not subspecies)... not all Crotalus species. C. pricei, lepidus klauberi, willardi and Sistrurus c. edwardsii are protected and off limits.

Now, these are COLLECTING permits and not possession permits. That is totally different in Arizona. In Arizona, you can only keep hots that are not only native to Arizona but only from Arizona. You cannot keep a western diamondback from Texas in Arizona without an exotics permit even though atrox are found there. Plus, there are issues regarding possession limits and gifting of young as you are aware of.

I ask since I thought take was year round (if you can find them) and have been told you dont need a license.

I still think the easiest way to get hots is to recieve a "gift"

You don't need a license only if you want to take the chance of getting caught without one. Technically, even chasing/posing a native herp is "hunting" and you need a license for that. Although I think they are working on changing/alturing that. And yes, the easiest and best way is just to get one gifted to you.

In a nutshell....One only needs a permit to COLLECT, not keep...(however, one must still stay within "bag limits" if one chooses to keep any vens.) No Heloderms, leps, pricei, willardi or Sistrurus period. (without an educational or scientific permit issued by AzG&F)...no exotic front-fanged venomous snakes (again, without said permit)...Most rear-fangs are ok, with the exception of Rhabdophis, slangs, and African twig snakes....

Very correct..legally speaking, one cannot import (and keep) even a native species into Az...(there is a 72 hour transport window from those traveling through Az.) However, enforcement of this part of the law is difficult, as most species are remarkably variable, and a specimen of a native species can seldom be proven to be from outside of Az...

Also, one cannot legally export animals from Az, breed them, and then turn around and sell the offspring...Once an Az animal always an Az animal, and as such the progeny of an Az animal is forever forbidden to be sold....(Again, difficult to enforce but the law nonetheless).

"Bag limit" is 4 per person per day of any unprotected native crotalid. Progeny must be either disposed of by gift or as directed by AzG&F. I think that about sums it up....

-Kris

I know of several people in NM, very respected keepers, who have Heloderma legally. One of whom lives in Albuquerque, and has had his facility inspected by the city authorities of whom gave him a permit to keep venomous inside the city of Albuquerque (they apparently have a permit system).

Unless he's a zoo or other sanctioned individual (like the Rattlesnake Museum) then NO there is no permit for Heloderms in NM. NM has absolutely NO PERMIT SYSTEM for these animals. Even the commercial collection permit is ONLY an out of state permit, they have no such thing for residents. Please see the statutes and such, I provided the numbers and etc for them to be easy to find on the statutes site. If he claims to have one (and does not fit the criteria, which includes: available for public viewing or education, among others) then it is fake.

David Furphy
AKN Venom & Exotics
NM

And if such a thing does exist, PLEASE let us know where you found it. I found no such thing and was told by Charlie Painter (state herpetologist) that they are NOT allowed for private keepers in NM.

David Furphy
AKN Venom & Exotics
NM

I will do some digging and see what I can come up with. By the way, I'm down here in Las Cruces...we have local ordinances in place banning possession of all proteroglyphic and solenoglyphic species, and the lethal opistoglyphs (specifically Dispholidus, Thelatornis, and Rhabdophis).

Do they mention these genus specifically? That would be really odd as there is no zoo or other institution there that would keep booms and such. I doubt that that place in the mall would keep them. That's odd that they are so specific

David Furphy
NM

Yes, they do specifically mention Dispholidus, Thelatornis, and Rhabdophis by genus.

Far out! Something specific must have happened with the genus's for them to mention that. Too wierd. I really gotta say that is pretty strange. Any mention of others? Like naja or any other exotics?

David

They don't specifically mention Naja, but effectively cover them by banning Elapidae in general, which is pretty standard fare as far as bans go...they just ban the entire family. Same with Viperidae. Obviously, they can't ban all of Colubridae so they specify the genera they want to ban.

Wild. Most places simply don't know about the rearfangs. That is what surprises me about the ban. The others are "standard" sort of thing. If they saw the effects of a hognose envenomation (yes I know the chances are very remote, but, I have seen a forced envenomation, not pretty. similar to a copperhead with much less necrotism) they would add them.
Their thoroughness really surprises me though.

David

Actually, as far as I'm aware of, many municipalities and states have restrictions in place for the "big 3" rear-fanged colubrids. Oddly, California does NOT ban Rhabdophis, while they do ban Dispholidus and Thelatornis...considering that all 3 have been known to cause serious and sometimes fatal envenomations, it seems odd they would ban two and not the third. Here in Las Cruces though, they seem more privy to the fact that these guys have caused fatalities and accordingly banned their possession. Definitely sucks, because I really like boomers and twigs...I've only rarely seen Rhabdophis on price lists, so I'm not as bummed about them.

I agree. I once had the pleasure of meeting a melanistic boom and it was indeed a pleasure. Excellent animals and it was a very neat opportunity for me. Otero has no such laws as far as I know. One interesting one is no animals (might read predators) over 30lb (excluding dogs and cats) within city limits. What saved them on that ('cause I DO love crocodilians) was the term "animal" or "predator" rather than mammal. It was most likely meant for large predators like mountain lions and bears. Which I also had a chance to adopt, but, just too much care and space (with no return, and I know that sounds crass but snakes I can afford and make up costs with babies and rescues. But, a big animal like that nope, not yet).

Peace,

David

I know of at least one private individual that has a legal, permitted (permit from NM Game & Fish) Gila monster in New Mexico. Permits can be written for anything, you just have to have the right connections. Also, Gilas are protected by New Mexico but not Beaded Lizards so let's not be too inclusive/exclusive when we use the term Heloderm.

Sorry I won't believe it until I see it. The state herpetologist (Charles Painter) and the head of NMG&F Law Enforcement are my sources. You are welcome to call them, their #'s are on the New Mexico Game and Fish site. Please tell me who or what your sources are. New Mexico simply has NO, I repeat, NO legislation in place for such a permit.
IF a person was to approach and ask these people the policy is to have a committee meeting to decide such a case. I doubt that they would go to that much trouble for one individual who simply wanted to keep heloderm.
When applying for import of exotic species this committee must ok each animal by species. They won't meet for an Indonesian import of 1000 reptiles or so. Do you really believe that ONE individual is going to have a chance to get this committee together.

David

http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-hit-h.htm&2.0

Here is a link to the NM Laws and Statutes. All the laws I mentioned earlier are here. Not a thing on Gila's, heloderm, or monsters.
Now if you want clarification the names and #'s for the NMDFG employees are on the NMDGF website.
There is no permit unless you are a zoo or the animal is for exhibit (like the one in the Las Cruces mall.
I'm not going to explain how to become a zoo or exhibitor as the process is too much to go through much less explain.
Could you do the same for your friends permit please. Proof would be a great thing as I would love to keep Gila's.

David

Hey Rob,
Just for clarification sake, NV prohibits all non-native venomous reptiles including the rear fangers Thelotornis, Dispholidus, and Rhabdophis, as well as crocodilians and a variety of other herps they find potentially detrimental (Xenopus, Chelydridae, etc). If you intend to ever exhibit native hots to the public, you will be required to get a commercial possession permit at $500/yr. Some places have succeeded in getting permits for prohibited animals for public display. However, speaking from experience, it is near impossible to get these permits if you don’t have an open-to-the-public display. Through our 501(c) 3 organization, I do many traveling displays and educational programs, and they still refuse to issue a permit for anything prohibited because we don’t have an open to public facility (at least that is the argument they have settled on because they can’t come up with any other legitimate reasons to deny us).

I hope this helps,

John