Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when i got this guy,from a tiny ma & pa petstore.he was in shed and the owner had no idea,other than corn,what or where if you know what i mean.i would love to here from the corn people,let me know what you think he is,thanks

He's got some nice color to him. His borders are too thin to be Okeetee though.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

thanks for look'n that's what i thought not enough black,but after he shed for the first time he was this bright orange and thought, not bad for a blind pic(he was about 1 when i got him and very blue going into shed)

Okeetees vary considerably. The Abbotts line has wide black borders, but some examples of the Love line to not. "Okeetee" generally means bright orange/red - and I'd say that's what you have.

Tim

Third Eye

The borders aren't right, and there's too much of a dirty wash to his coloration. If someone sold me hippydave's snake as an Okeetee, I would be having some stern words with the seller.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

Sounds like you should check out the pictures on www.cornsnake.net. They have an Okeetee with narrow black borders as well as an Abbott's with wide black borders. As I said in my earlier post, there's a lot of variation in Okeetees.

Tim

...because the snakes in those pics, while being okeetees, aren't all prime examples. And yet they still look more okeetee than the snake in the original post.

If all thin-saddled, dirty-washed, but brightly-colored cornsnakes were labelled okeetees (aka 'if all pretty normals were okeetees'), we'd be overrun with okeetees. I still stand by my original statement, that the original picture is NOT Okeetee. A pretty normal, yes. Okeetee, no.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

I have to agree with Kat. This snake looks very much like my two normals. The coloring is just not right for okeetee. I don't know how to describe it, but I will try. The orange background is a little too light and the saddles are a little too orangish. I think normal, not okeetee. I am not an expert, but thats my opinion.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

So you're saying Dave's snake looks like the normal on www.cornsnake.net and not the Okeetee? That's crazy (or you both are color blind) Okeetees are characterized by red blotches on an orange background - which describes the snake pictured in the post.

Tim

Criteria for an ideal okeetee:
1. Red saddles
2. Orange background
3. Thick black borders
4. Large saddles
5. Solid colors (no white or fading)
6. Bold colors (no dirty wash over the saddles)

1,2, and 5 are not enough. Those three basically equate to a 'pretty normal'.
Most of the above should be true for a pretty good okeetee. The screamers meet all 6 criteria and meet them well.
Sometimes cornsnakes of Okeetee lineage will still be labelled as okeetee, even if they're lacking in a few areas. Okeetee locality (as opposed to okeetee phase) are not required to meet any of the above critera... but need to be from the Okeetee hunt club area (or wholely decended from those snakes that were).

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

Excellent point on Okeetee locality vs Okeetee Phase. I'm not sure how well my corn stacks up as far as meeting all 6 criteria, but with my 03 male being a decendent from Wild caught corns from the Hunt Club region, he's an Okeetee by default. Good topic.

Steve

>>1,2, and 5 are not enough. Those three basically equate to a 'pretty normal'.
Most of the above should be true for a pretty good okeetee. The screamers meet all 6 criteria and meet them well.
Sometimes cornsnakes of Okeetee lineage will still be labelled as okeetee, even if they're lacking in a few areas. Okeetee locality (as opposed to okeetee phase) are not required to meet any of the above critera... but need to be from the Okeetee hunt club area (or wholely decended from those snakes that were).

>>...because the snakes in those pics, while being okeetees, aren't all prime examples. And yet they still look more okeetee than the snake in the original post.
>>
>>If all thin-saddled, dirty-washed, but brightly-colored cornsnakes were labelled okeetees (aka 'if all pretty normals were okeetees'), we'd be overrun with okeetees. I still stand by my original statement, that the original picture is NOT Okeetee. A pretty normal, yes. Okeetee, no.
>>
>>-Kat
>>-----
>>This Space For Rent

just curious.
what would you call this?

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

A very pretty normal.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

>>A very pretty normal.
>>

see that is where you are wrong.
That is a true Okeetee from Don Soderberg.
That is why you can't just look at a snake and automatically say it is not an okeetee.
Now, if you want to call Don and tell him he doesn't know his bloodlines...well...
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I agree with Tim and Jimmy its a Okeetee.
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Cameron

>>I agree with Tim and Jimmy its a Okeetee.
>>-----
>>Cameron

No, I am not saying it is an okeetee.
I have no way to know.
I was just trying to point out the fact that you can not simply look at a snake like that and say it is not an okeetee because the borders are too thin.
It could very well be an okeetee.
Remember phase was never mentioned.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

That is why it is hard to tell what most snakes are "for sure" by the looks. So many morphs and phases blend with each other. You really need to know the bloodlines to be sure. With out knowing, I would guess normal as well, but then again, like I said, I am not expert.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

Okay... I think we're both sort of arguing the same thing. The snake in the original qualifies as neither an okeetee phase nor an okeetee locality snake.

IMO the snake picture you posted does not quite qualify as an okeetee phase due to the borders (unless it happens to be hypo). If you say it's a locality okeetee, then I'll have to take your word for it.

Since you absolutely cannot tell for sure what a snake's locality is from a photo (or even from just looking at the snake in person), it is absolutely silly to consider locality when given a photo and asked, 'What morph is my snake?'. Furthermore, never was the term 'okeetee' mentioned by the original poster or presumably by the petstore. Hence, I did not feel it warranted mention in this context until tspuckler started arguing that okeetees didn't all look like the okeetee phase standard.

Corn hybrids with enough corn blood to them sometimes look indistinguishable from normal corns. Should I have also mentioned that there was a possibility that cornsnake was a hybrid, since it came with unknown genetics from a petstore? I don't think so. There is no way to prove whether that snake is a locality okeetee or not, and so there's really no point in considering that as a response. Yeesh.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

I hate to drag this out, Tim's post made me do search. I just did a google search for "okeetee" and several well know corn breeders are selling okeetees with "narrow black bands" and similar to the first picture.

I had no idea there were such strong opinions on this topic.

was a long thread, but thanks to all for info I gained.
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

Most breeders aren't completely honest... Most breeders don't have locality okeetees, they have nice orange snakes with big red borders. Say they breed these non-locality okeetees together and they have some normal looking babies. Since these babies are not locality okeetees they are for all intents and purposes normal. Do you think they will label them as normal and take the price drop or sell them as okeetees?
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

I totally agree. People are calling their snakes what they want because of the colors, not the genetics. Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying everyone is, but it does happen. That is what makes things difficult when figuring out what you have, if some people sell snakes that have no idea about the genetic make-up. Its like someone selling a snake that is het for miami or candy cane.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

>>I totally agree. But it's that way with most things. And if someone happens to get a snake with no "true" backgroud knowledge you try your best to make a good decision. (good people) But there is some area of vageness. A real crappy okeetee, a great normal, a super large "dwarf retic" a small normal. I think I will stop now? Unless someone disagrees lol

I think we have reached a point of total non-sequiter, unless we continue!
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I really don't think it is going on as much as people say.
I just haven't really seen proof of it.
Most of the dealer/breeders you find on the internet aren't asking any more then around $35.00 for okeetees so I don't see some great mark-up there.
And as far as the bigger breeders go, it could/would be a hell of a lot more costly to get caught lying then they would ever make selling normals as okeetees. Just not worth it.
More then anything, I just see every other person with a normal trying to convince themselves they bought an okeetee.
I am not saying this about the person who started this thread. All they did was ask our opinions on what they had.
I see a lot of people who buy normals, then come here and say "I bought this normal at a local store but I think it may be an okeetee, what do you think?"
When they are told it looks like a normal and was sold as a normal so it can't be called anything but a normal.
They then want to argue. "Well, it looks like a lot of other snakes I've seen posted as okeetees."
This goes on and on and happens almost every other day.
They are all normals anyway.
You can't allways go by looks.
If it was sold as a normal it is a normal.

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

/
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

I totally agree Jimmy. Just out of curiosity... what was that one sold as?
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

>>I totally agree Jimmy. Just out of curiosity... what was that one sold as?
>>-----

That is an okeetee.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Yes, but was it bought as a normal or okeetee? Did you buy it young?
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

>>Yes, but was it bought as a normal or okeetee? Did you buy it young?
>>-----

It was bred by a friend of mine.
He put his okeetees together and they had babies.
He traded me a few of the hatchlings for a couple of king snakes.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>>He's got some nice color to him. His borders are too thin to be Okeetee though.
>>
>>-Kat
>>-----
>>This Space For Rent

You can say the borders are too thin to look like a quality okeetee phase but you can not say the borders are too thin to be an okeetee.
Not all okeetees meet the lookatee or okeetee "phase" criteria but are still okeetees.
I understand why you said what you did but there are still two classifications or shools of thought pertaining to okeetee.
Which is really a pain in the ass, but until they drop the locality out of the equation and just go by looks, we have to be aware of both schools of thought.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

...and if you read the whole thread, I did get into the locality discussion later...

But the original question was, based on looks, did that snake qualify as anything other than a normal. Given the snake's history (pet shop acquisition with no information as to where it came from before that), I doubt anyone would call it an Okeetee locality corn. So the only real question was whether it qualified as okeetee phase. And no, it does not.

-Kat
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This Space For Rent

This is a "normal" corn. What the original poster posted is a Okeetee.

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Cameron

see, this snake to me looks closer to the miami phase, with the greyish background. could just be me
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

It looks much more greyer in the picture than it actually was, it was a darker straw color, like in the front of the body in the picture. The flash was on and messed with the colors.
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Cameron

Heres a better picture, and i do see where you got miami, but im 99% sure it was a normal

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Cameron

Cameron,

Nice find! That one looks similar to this one I found in Fort Lauderdale. It's pretty evident that the earthtone colors that most normals have are much more subdued than the bright colors in hippiedave's Okeetee.

Tim

Third Eye

I caught that Tim lmao
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Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Awesome find Tim, i found one about 5 feet long in my front yard once that was identical to yours, he was mean as heck. Never stoped snapping.

The wild ones sure do range in color, from Zee's golden corn to your dark one.

Corns for sure are one of the best snakes.
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Cameron

>>...and if you read the whole thread, I did get into the locality discussion later...
>>
>>But the original question was, based on looks, did that snake qualify as anything other than a normal. Given the snake's history (pet shop acquisition with no information as to where it came from before that), I doubt anyone would call it an Okeetee locality corn. So the only real question was whether it qualified as okeetee phase. And no, it does not.
>>
>>-Kat
>>-----

Yes you did mention locality, later.
But in the original response you didn't say all of that.
You simply said borders too thin to be an okeetee.
Phase was never mentioned.

I am not trying to argue normal or okeetee.
We can never be sure.
The fact that it was in a pet store and the owners had no idea, would also lead me towards normal.
That wasn't the problem.
I just don't feel you can jump to a definite conclusion just by
the look or non-look of the snake.

Of course this debate has been going on for years.
And will be going on for many more years.
Like I said before, until we completely drop locality from the equation looks alone do not define okeetee.
but we are basically beating a dead horse anyway.
okeetees are simply normals with a name.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

.........
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

OK, I am no expert. I was leaning towards an oak, agree not a great one.

But since most of these guys are CB , who's to say its not 66% oak and 33 nice normal, or any other combo one can imagine.

I would think? And I know I will be corrected, but I would think you could be hunting in the middle of oak country and find a bad oak or a more normal looking snake?

Please keep the topic going, I am bringing home 1.2 young corn "I call Okeetees" The male has a hypo head. I'll be very interested to see opinions. Long posts like this are entertaining, but also very educational. I've had a lot of herps, but was never into corns. It is a tough area and so much is opinion on the phenotype.

It was a very nice snake , not a great okeetee. So far I do not see anything to definitively say it is one or the other. in my rookie corn opinion
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

It can not be 66% because okeetee is not a het trait. It is 1 of 2 things. Either a snake found in the okeetee hunt club region (no matter what it looks like EVERY corn there is an okeetee according to them) or it has the okeetee "look" which is why it is so debatable. Because not everyone agrees on what defines an okeetee. I say normal unless it is from the hunt club area.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

If you put it like that, I agree. It can "look" like an okeetee, but should be labelled as a normal unless it has the bloodlines. If it has the okeetee look, but not the genetics, it should be labelled as such.
If its just a pet, you can think of it as which ever, but if you are planning on breeding it, I think it is important to properly label the snakes. Everyone has their own opinion and this is just another one of those topics that can go on and on......
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

Oh please, I was just throwing out numbers to show it can be a mix. and oak x normal would be 50 x50, I can play with the numbers to get it 66%. Please grab the general meaning.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

the other poster is correct. The snake can not just be hypo on the head, but we get the idea. Terminology is kinda touchy sometimes.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

This is my definition of an Oke. This is my girl and I might be wrong but I believe she is Okeetee through and through(Ive seen her parents)....Not to keep going with this or anything....LOL

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Amel,Green Snow,Okatee,Motley Stripe,Hypos X 2,Snow females. Anery male, and pairs of Candys,Butter,and Motley Creamsicles

i agree,that is an okeetee and a nice one at that! jeff

Very nice looking snake.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

Tom,

Those aren't Okeetees you have - they're just "very pretty normals."

Tim
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

Is this a record thread yet?
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.1 MIA
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
Degus
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I think we have all taken everyones point on things. Maybe time to move on. LOL. My opinion is every snake is beautiful no matter what name you put to it.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

I just wanted say one more thing.
I personally think Okeetee has gone beyond local and should be used as a look and not a local.
I think if someone wants to define a snake as an Okeetee hunt club local snake they should label it as a Hunt Club corn or Jasper County corn.
Language evolves.
What ment one thing five years ago can easily mean something else today.
Sometimes you have to go with the changes.
One of the main reasons I say Okeetee should not be used as a local name is simple.
You can ask ten different people what the true borders of the "okeetee" region are and you will get ten different answers.
Some say only the hunt club.
Some say up to a few miles around the hunt club.
Some say Jasper county.
There has to be an agreed upon border, there is not.
Then there is the simple argument that snakes can cross in and out of the hunt club at will.
A snake born 4 miles from the hunt club, to parents who have never been in the hunt club borders, can cross into the hunt club borders and be found the next day has now become an Okeetee.
Guess what? it isn't.
A snake born in the hunt club, to parents who were born in the hunt club, crosses the border outside the hunt club and is found the next day. It has now become a non-okeetee. Guess what? It's an okeetee as true as okeetee can be but because it was on the other side of the border it can not be called an okeetee. strange to say the least.
That is why I want okeetee to be separated as a look like Candy Cane, sunglow or even Miami.
There might be a little argument there but miami is a look not a locality.
Like I said if you want it to be locale specific call it hunt club or Jasper county or hunt club road or whatever.
That's all I have to say about that

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Very good points. Things do need to change and are changing on a regular basis. That is life. To have a name for the genetics, like hunt club and a name for the look of okeetee, would make things much simpler.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

Well said Jimmy!
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

WOW!!!!!!!!!! I didn't think i'd get this kind of feedback. CORN PEOPLE ROCK, pic of miami=she is a miami X milksnake phase. My new post is what do you think about cross'n diff. color phase corns? I got her because I couldn't pass up a 15$ eating corn ( should have bought 2 ). And I would love to see some pics of "miami, miami X milk, and just a milksnake phase" hope this starts another crazy thred!!!!!!!!!

>>WOW!!!!!!!!!! I didn't think i'd get this kind of feedback. CORN PEOPLE ROCK, pic of miami=she is a miami X milksnake phase. My new post is what do you think about cross'n diff. color phase corns? I got her because I couldn't pass up a 15$ eating corn ( should have bought 2 ). And I would love to see some pics of "miami, miami X milk, and just a milksnake phase" hope this starts another crazy thred!!!!!!!!!
>>

Crossing different corn morphs is how we get all these new corn morphs.
That's what it's all about.

You know the good thing about this discussion is, all-in-all it stayed fairly civil.
I have seen many many threads digress to name calling, personal attacks and off topic jabs.
This one, at least, stayed pretty much in order.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

"Crossing different corn morphs is how we get all these new corn morphs.
That's what it's all about.

You know the good thing about this discussion is, all-in-all it stayed fairly civil.
I have seen many many threads digress to name calling, personal attacks and off topic jabs.
This one, at least, stayed pretty much in order."

Jimmy if your trying to tell me that my snake is a normal and yours is a okeetee im going to cut your head off with a pinkie mouses foot, you blah blah blah.

Im just kidding Jimmy, i just had to do that when you said it stayed clean. Everyone needs a laugh sometimes.

Nice looker there by the way, male or female?
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Cameron

Can you post a picture of one of your Striped Creamsicles. Just wanted to see one of yours if you have any pictures.

Thanks
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Cameron

>>Can you post a picture of one of your Striped Creamsicles. Just wanted to see one of yours if you have any pictures.
>>
>>Thanks
>>-----
>>Cameron

Apollo, male

Stripe, female

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Awesome, are they breeding?
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Cameron

>>Awesome, are they breeding?
>>-----
>>Cameron

they hooked up on Feb. 15th
Stripe should lay some time around the first week of April
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>>
>>Nice looker there by the way, male or female?
>>-----
>>Cameron

That is Doc
male
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I hope that my joking around didnt offend you or anyone else for that matter. If it did im truely sorry.
-----
Cameron

>>I hope that my joking around didnt offend you or anyone else for that matter. If it did im truely sorry.
>>-----
>>Cameron

got to have some joking going on...
gets too boring with out humor

so, bite me....lol
just kidding.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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thats what I really like about this forum. People can have their own opinions, and state their side, some agree, some disagree, but we do it with respect.
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!

I think this is the longest thread that I have seen since I started posting here.

Are we done yet? LOL.
Did we all get it off our chests? I think there were a lot of valid points!
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**********Misty**********
I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once!