Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I have a 4-5 year old male kaouthia who has very recently had what appears to be severe spinal trouble. He's been very normal until recently. I have no idea what happened with his spine. He still drinks, deficates, and is aware of what is going on, but has trouble moving. He can hood and move the first 12" of his body normally and has very slight tail movement. The rest of his body is immobile. Any insight or advice is greatly appreciated. I'm trying to take him to a vet as soon as I can, but figured you guys may be of some help in the meantime. Thanks for any help.

- Mike

This is NOT the place to be asking this question; from the looks of it, this snake needs immediate medical attention (or euthanasia)....could be a host of things ranging from neurological problems, crypto, paramyxovirus, bacterial, genetic, etc., etc....anything would just be a guess. I would urge you to quarantine this animal immediately from any other herps and keep a close eye on everyone. Good luck,

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Hi,
>>I have a 4-5 year old male kaouthia who has very recently had what appears to be severe spinal trouble. He's been very normal until recently. I have no idea what happened with his spine. He still drinks, deficates, and is aware of what is going on, but has trouble moving. He can hood and move the first 12" of his body normally and has very slight tail movement. The rest of his body is immobile. Any insight or advice is greatly appreciated. I'm trying to take him to a vet as soon as I can, but figured you guys may be of some help in the meantime. Thanks for any help.
>>
>>
>>- Mike
>>
>>
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I have seen this develop in snakes that are related.
Snakes like this albino Monacle, doesn't surprise me at all. These snakes are so inbred, it isn't funny.
Snakes that are related and constantly inbred to one another, or siblings bred to one or another develop spinal problems in the first year or so in their lives. It's PROBABLY a congenital defect.

However, take it to a vet and have radiographs done...pronto!

Hi:

Rob is right about the animal, it has to be put down but I can tell you the cause because I have seen it 3 times. It is an occurance of Spondylosis secondary to a Salmonella arizoniae infection. I had a male Cerastes vipera necropsied by Zoo Vet Pathologist that is a reptile specialist. That was the diagnosis and no cure.

Put the Naja out of it's pain.

I do think think the poster waited to long to post the picture of the sick Naja and get help but was correct to do so in the end. As sad as the picture is to see, where else is the private venomous community to get help for their sick animals but here on forums like this. One picture is worth a thousand words , although those words could not save this animal but maybe the next one. Visitors should not be be reluctant to ask for this type of help but please ask early and not late as in this case.

Personally I've spent a complete day on the phone to area Vets trying to get one of them to look at a small sick Bitis cornuta. None of the 30+ I called would see a venomous snake, period! I could understand their reluctance if I wanted to come in with a 7 ft Black Mamba but a 7in Cornuta that was in no shape to put up any fight. Beside I would do all of the restraining and take a bite to protect anyone present. One of the AZA's biggest gripe towards the private keepers second only to the lack of A/V is that private keepers cannot care for their animals correctly. This is true to some extent, however, not because we would not spend the $$ on a Vet if one of our snakes needed care but because the Vets don't want anything to do with Hot snakes & their keepers. AZA institutions have staff Vets that like it or not take care of that institutions Hot collection.

Al

A. taylori with occurance of spondylosis in relation to a Salmonella arizoniae infection. Notice the spine is fused on the 2nd through the 6th band. This animal was put down shortly after this picture was taken before it started to rapidly loose weight.

-----
Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.

Beautiful animal, really sad to see that happen to it (both animals). I agree Al, finding a good reptile vet is tough enough, much less trying to find a good reptile vet that is willing to work with a venomous snake or large crocodilian.

Chris

>>Hi:
>>
>>Rob is right about the animal, it has to be put down but I can tell you the cause because I have seen it 3 times. It is an occurance of Spondylosis secondary to a Salmonella arizoniae infection. I had a male Cerastes vipera necropsied by Zoo Vet Pathologist that is a reptile specialist. That was the diagnosis and no cure.
>>
>>Put the Naja out of it's pain.
>>
>>I do think think the poster waited to long to post the picture of the sick Naja and get help but was correct to do so in the end. As sad as the picture is to see, where else is the private venomous community to get help for their sick animals but here on forums like this. One picture is worth a thousand words , although those words could not save this animal but maybe the next one. Visitors should not be be reluctant to ask for this type of help but please ask early and not late as in this case.
>>
>>Personally I've spent a complete day on the phone to area Vets trying to get one of them to look at a small sick Bitis cornuta. None of the 30 I called would see a venomous snake, period! I could understand their reluctance if I wanted to come in with a 7 ft Black Mamba but a 7in Cornuta that was in no shape to put up any fight. Beside I would do all of the restraining and take a bite to protect anyone present. One of the AZA's biggest gripe towards the private keepers second only to the lack of A/V is that private keepers cannot care for their animals correctly. This is true to some extent, however, not because we would not spend the $$ on a Vet if one of our snakes needed care but because the Vets don't want anything to do with Hot snakes & their keepers. AZA institutions have staff Vets that like it or not take care of that institutions Hot collection.
>>
>>Al
>>
>>A. taylori with occurance of spondylosis in relation to a Salmonella arizoniae infection. Notice the spine is fused on the 2nd through the 6th band. This animal was put down shortly after this picture was taken before it started to rapidly loose weight.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

I guess I haven't realized how lucky I am. I have a good vet here that doesn't mind dealing with venomous at all. I do all of the restraining etc, and once the animal is asleep and restrained he has no problem at all dealing with them. If I'm bringing in a particularly large or dangerous animal he'll even leave his clinic open after hours so that there isn't anyone else around to distract/freak out. Luckily they are comfortable enough with simple procedures (such as surgically implanting radio transmitters into copperheads/timber rattlesnakes) that I just bring the animals in inside my backpack (along with restraining tools) and go to the back and we'll work on them during normal business hours. It's also a pretty big plus b/c of the people there that are more interested than afraid of snakes can see a venomous snake while they are safely restrained and under anesthesia, reslting in a very positive experience.

I guess we're both lucky in that regard Bobby. Maybe it's an Arkansas thing? My vet is more than willing to treat any snake I bring in, and over the past several years, that's included some pretty nasty animals. Not only that, but he charges a very reasonable sum, probably because he's mainly a livestock-oriented vet and never otherwise gets to see these animals.
-----
Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

will also see anything I bring in. But I transport them in screw top 5 gallon buckets accompanied by tubes and necassary tools.
-----
Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Every once in a while there is a question about a hot herp on the vet info network and there is an immediate knee-jerk reaction to avoid them at all costs. The fact to the matter is that 99% of vets chose NOT to become zoo vets, and for all intents and purposes, hot herps are zoo animals. This means, a long drive if one of your herps gets sick. I'm surprised at the number of keepers here who do not have a hot herp vet, being that this was just one of the extra responsibilities necessary to keeping these animals. Surely no more difficult than obtaining that foriegn vial of antivenom.
For those interested, always ask for referals when turned down by a vet, or begin at the memberlist at www.arav.com. Some clinics may even be compassionate enough to call around for you.

For this particular snake, Al may very well be right with the salmonella guess, but nothing can be diagnosed without a hands on exam, diagnostics, and a DVM degree. Get your vet's opinion asap, as all thousand words this picture has to offer say your snake is suffering. I agree that euthanasia will likely be the best option.

Good luck anyhow

Ian

Yes, everyone who has a good, cheap, and willing vet is really lucky. I would have gladly spent $100's of $$ to save those animals that had to be put down, even though they both cost me less than $100 each. Every keeper on this forum knows what I mean. Their worth cannot be measured in mear dollars & cents.

I've used www.arav.com and find it's a good try at helping with the problem but it's very out of date. Vets on the list are either no longer in the area or not even practicing anymore. One Vet on the list, who is highly regarded is still in the area but at another practice that won't allow her to see venomous. Just one big frustration!

Al
-----
Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.

I agree the list is a bit outdated, but it's a mere start. Nothing beats talking to clinics and asking for referals. Perhaps a hot herp vet list should be started and hosted on, lets say an antivenom bank website... hint, hint

Ian

Your snake appears to be suffering from segmental proliferative osteoarthritis. It is a condition in which the spinal vertebrae become inflammed and the surrounding muscles begin to atrophy and shrink, giving the snake a "kinked" posture. The onset of this condition happens very rapidly. It is a form of arthritis that usually results from a bacterial infection. Many snakes are carriers of this bacteria, but never suffer any ill effects due to a strong immune system. This condition is more commonly found in genetic morphs of snakes such as albinos, due to the fact that many of these morphs come from the inbreeding of related snakes. This repetitive inbreeding often leads to snakes being born with suppressed immune systems, which in turn hampers their ability to effectively stave off bacterial infections. I have seen this condition affect snakes from neonates up to well established long-term adults. Unfortunately, there really is no cure and euthanizing the snake is going to be your best option. I am sorry to see that this has happened to your snake. I wish you the best of luck..

If anyone is interested.. I have an excellect Scientific paper on this topic. Email me and I will send you the PDF's

Al
-----
Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.