Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know(or have an opinion) to what type of a temp gradient a BRB can recognize? Let me explain what I'm asking about....

Can a BRB know the difference between 76 and 78 degrees? In my opinion they can and do however I am uncertain how long it takes one to know the slighter changes. Obviously a change in behavior occurrs with a more dramatic difference in temp...say 85 to 75...but how long does it take to notice a slight change?

If cooling and warming are indeed required for sperm production and ovulation....what is the gap of difference that a BRB can actually recognize assuming photoperiod reductions are not involved?

This probably doesn't make as much sense to you all as it does in my mind, but it falls along the lines of the boiling frog....has to be done slow.

Really I'm curious...I have heard dogs cannot notice a diff unless it is greater than 6 degrees unless it is a baby. I personally think I can tell the temp is warmer at 50 than at 48. Anyone have an opinion on this?

I feel kinda absent to the Forum these weeks...I miss it and have been too busy, blah, blah, blah. Another ebb....maybe it will get going with lots of baby pics before too long.

Linda Misch

Hope everyone is well.

Intersting question. I'm sure this won't answer it but I'll start with some observations. We've all seen our BRB's (and other snakes) move off of the heat when too warm. I'd like to offer that the mid 90's seems to be where these animals become uncomfortable.

I'd be willing to bet that a search of the literature would turn up some study somewhere of their facial pits and how sensitive they are. Jeff, do you know of any such papers?

When I'm not teaching or feeding things to snakes, I'm coaching for our school's swim team. We keep the water at a steady 78 degrees. I notice it when it's 75. That's much too cold for me. However, some people will jump right in and start swimming, no complaints. A few weeks ago, our heater broke and the temperature dropped to 72. All of my swimmers noticed this temperature change.

If it's anything like people, there is a range of temps where enzymes perform most efficiently to facilitate all biochemical reactions (did I mention I teach biology?). Within that range. we are individuls whose perception of hot and cold depends on our own being, In the case pf the pool it's all about the body fat. A heavier person does not notice the cold as readily as someone without those extra insulating layers.

I'd imagine the situation is similar in snakes. While they can't generate an internal temperature, they can maintain one. I would think their body fat would help to determine how rapidly they take on or lose heat and therefore, determine how sensitive they are to large or small changes in ambient temperature.

I don't know if this is going down the same pathway. Your topic actually just made me want to share the pool story. Man I respected those kids for making it through a practice in 72 degree water,
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Linda,
...Really good question and discussion. What I see using my Raytech temp gun is that they do recognize the difference of just a degree or two. Mine will usually seek out and maintain a body temperature of 73 or 74 when they are not digesting a meal.
...I have a friend who has done some of his post graduate work on studies of the temperature sensing pits of the Pit Vipers and Pythons. We have discussed the heat pits on Rainbow Boas which are not so conspicuous as the pits on the Pythons and Pit Vipers and he is of the opinion that Rainbow Boas must have excellent temperature detection ability though probably not on the level of level of the Pit Vipers. It seems to me that when feeding dead prey Rainbows are MUCH more likely to quickly take the dead rodent if it is at 105 degrees rather than 100.
Jeff

>>Does anyone know(or have an opinion) to what type of a temp gradient a BRB can recognize? Let me explain what I'm asking about....
>>
>>Can a BRB know the difference between 76 and 78 degrees? In my opinion they can and do however I am uncertain how long it takes one to know the slighter changes. Obviously a change in behavior occurrs with a more dramatic difference in temp...say 85 to 75...but how long does it take to notice a slight change?
>>
>>If cooling and warming are indeed required for sperm production and ovulation....what is the gap of difference that a BRB can actually recognize assuming photoperiod reductions are not involved?
>>
>>This probably doesn't make as much sense to you all as it does in my mind, but it falls along the lines of the boiling frog....has to be done slow.
>>
>>Really I'm curious...I have heard dogs cannot notice a diff unless it is greater than 6 degrees unless it is a baby. I personally think I can tell the temp is warmer at 50 than at 48. Anyone have an opinion on this?
>>
>>I feel kinda absent to the Forum these weeks...I miss it and have been too busy, blah, blah, blah. Another ebb....maybe it will get going with lots of baby pics before too long.
>>
>>Linda Misch
>>
>>
>>Hope everyone is well.

Since you both are detail type folks I think your ideas could be very different to someone who is not so like-minded. I don't mean to suggest that you guys think the same although I do mean that both of you consider that details are important.

I like the swimmer analogy...it allows for individuals to vary according to their morphology and is an area that I can continue to think about. It reminds me of how integrated ALL of our biophysical reactions are dependent on the proper "ingredients" to work at peak level as well as the miracle (for lack of a better work....since we're speaking scientifically) of the way things work well even in less than what I perceive to be ideal conditions.

Now, for the sake of discussion and curiosity on my part.....

Do you think the heat pit on snakes are responsible for the ability to thermoregulate? Could they be for the sole purpose of locating prey? I want to challenge the idea that the reason behind greater acceptance of a prey item at 105 rather than 100 degrees is not due to the heat sensing ability but rather due to the increase in olfactory stimulation.

Any thoughts on that one? I am inclined to believe that recognition of environmental temps are due to a totally different mechanism than what is involved with seeking prey.

Please excuse my grammatical and spelling errors....I am self-conscious of them and didn't want to not post because I'm not officially educated.

Linda

Linda,

I wish I wasn't so busy this time of year. You are bringing up topics that I really would like to read more about. I'm sure that a good search of a university library would produce the answers to your questions. Even though I may not be able to cite the fact, I'd like to keep the discussion going.

Heat pits could aid in thermoregulation in that they can be used to find warmer or cooler basking areas. My understanding of the facial pits is that they contain lots of nerve endings. They are not big enough nor do they have enough blood supply to aid in taking on or giving up heat.

As for locating prey, their tongue gets them in the general area or lets them know that prey is approaching. I agree that at 105° a prey item is probably releasing more scent particles than at 100°. However, I think it's the facial pits that really help them pinpoint the animal.

I've just recently gotten into Green Tree Pythons. They're puppy dog tame during the day but I would never put my hand in the cage after dark. If they're hungry, the heat from a person's hand is enough to trigger a very fast feed ing response. I've seen GTP's pick off live mice in the dark from 10 - 12" away. They must be using their facial pits to key in on the warm blooded prey.

Now. I'll add one more layer to this. have you ever watched your BRB approach a living prey item and then they both just freeze? The mouse is right in front of the snake, why doesn't he take it? Then there's just a little movement and WHAM! So my money is on the tongue to get them in the ball park, the facial pits to key in on a particular area and the eyes to determine where to strike.

O.K. must go teach now...
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Me too Mike.....
I wish I had more time to pursue reading actual studies on this/these topic(s). Truth is I have a book by Fry that MAY explain some of these things...but I haven't read it cover to cover and iif I had I couldn't claim to accurately remember all that I read. I am off this weekend and will try to locate some documented information from the limited at-home resources I have although it is unlikely that it pertains solely to Rainbows.

I do think heat pits aid in thermoregulations although I am not convinced that they are the primary source of temperature control. Honestly, I don't have a clue what name to call the ability to "maintain temperature" in reptiles. I just think there is some other mechanism that is primarily involved. If I had access to a University Library I would probably have NO time to visit this forum!
Reading is my favorite thing to do and I haven't had any time to do much of that.

Since I have only experience with BRB's (and limited at that), I really don't have an understanding on how different species of snakes feed. Really I have no idea of where Rainbows fall into the chain of snakes with heat sensing pits although my guess would be about the middle of the pit vipers and the others with more non-existant external evidence of the structures.

Yes, I have noticied the "freeze" and always just thought of it as waiting for the mouse to choose a direction. The tongue seems to always preceed the prey movement. Never really thought it was related to area...target..precision. Makes sense to me.

About the olfactory sense....tongue smelling. Other than cats and snakes do any other critters have a Jacobson organ?

GTP's...I want one in the future. I think I prefer them over the ETB's. I really need more time and money......and a husband that I will respect the words "not now dear" from.

Linda

...We humans as well as apparently all or most of the mammals have a Jacobsons organ. It has long been thought that the Jacobsons organ in humans was vestigal and had no purpose. Recently there has been research that indicates that the Jacobsons is responsible for our ability to detact certain chemicals and is also functional in detecting pheromones.
Jeff

>>Me too Mike.....
>>I wish I had more time to pursue reading actual studies on this/these topic(s). Truth is I have a book by Fry that MAY explain some of these things...but I haven't read it cover to cover and iif I had I couldn't claim to accurately remember all that I read. I am off this weekend and will try to locate some documented information from the limited at-home resources I have although it is unlikely that it pertains solely to Rainbows.
>>
>>I do think heat pits aid in thermoregulations although I am not convinced that they are the primary source of temperature control. Honestly, I don't have a clue what name to call the ability to "maintain temperature" in reptiles. I just think there is some other mechanism that is primarily involved. If I had access to a University Library I would probably have NO time to visit this forum!
>>Reading is my favorite thing to do and I haven't had any time to do much of that.
>>
>>Since I have only experience with BRB's (and limited at that), I really don't have an understanding on how different species of snakes feed. Really I have no idea of where Rainbows fall into the chain of snakes with heat sensing pits although my guess would be about the middle of the pit vipers and the others with more non-existant external evidence of the structures.
>>
>>Yes, I have noticied the "freeze" and always just thought of it as waiting for the mouse to choose a direction. The tongue seems to always preceed the prey movement. Never really thought it was related to area...target..precision. Makes sense to me.
>>
>>About the olfactory sense....tongue smelling. Other than cats and snakes do any other critters have a Jacobson organ?
>>
>>GTP's...I want one in the future. I think I prefer them over the ETB's. I really need more time and money......and a husband that I will respect the words "not now dear" from.
>>
>>Linda