Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Al,
Your quote in the post below,

One of the AZA's biggest gripe towards the private keepers second only to the lack of A/V is that private keepers cannot care for their animals correctly.

Where, or who did you get this from?
I have never seen this or heard of this! I have been a AZA member for years and I know a lot of members who have private collections and I get every update, mandate, newsletters,email post, meetings minutes,etc.from the AZA and I have never seen their stance on this subject.
Please explain.

Randal

Hi Randal:

I am also an AZA member and I was not aware of this till Thomas talked about it at the meeting but it all make perfect sense.

A year or so back when the AZA meeting was in New Orleans, Thomas Eimermacher of SHHS was asked to do a presentation for the AZA meeting. It was regarding "Private Venomous Keeping" and included a Q & A at the end of the talk. Thomas presented a summary of the talk at our annual get together at the SC venomous show that year. Two reasons the AZA & members sited at the main reasons private individuals should not be allowed to keep venomous were: lack of private stocks of A/V for the snakes kept AND the fact that many animals kept were ending up dead because of poor care in the hands of the public. For further details I would suggest you ask Thomas since he was there and fielded all of the questions from the AZA members.

Also, just consider all of the bad press local AZA Zoo keepers give private keepers when they have to cough up their A/V to save that private keepers ass. That evidence is overwhelming and I can reference many of Wes's news reports posted on this forum.

In both counts the AZA is correct, How many questions do we answer here from people who get a venomous snake and have no clue on what the species requires for proper care? How many of those snakes survive one year in captivity, not many. How many hot snakes end up a Zoo's because the individual cannot deal with it care safely, lots. This problem does not only apply to venomous reptiles but the pet trade in general...how many animals go home and dies because the owner does not know how to care for it BEFORE they bring it home. It's just a sad fact we try to overlook.

Best,

Al
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Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.

Its your last paragraph Al, that really strikes hard. How many captive bred snakes of all sorts, end up in homes that allow the animal to mature and live a full lifespan? Worst maybe: what happens to the remainder? There is a thought that the more unusual, high-end (expensive) and difficult to keep species will generate better stats. One can hope that those dynamics apply to venomous species. I lothe regulation so am completely reluctant to support that strategy, but I am concerned, even as a keeper and not breeder, about say as an example, the number of burmese pythons sold as pets in the U.S. The final disposition of that group of animals can't be good. And finally, and most sad, I don't how the problem is to be fixed except at the individual-case level...

As an aza member for the past 10years and active member of the zoo herp community I can say that negative opinion is not shared by the majority of zoo herpers and probably not the majority of aza folks.

While the AZA in general does not support keeping exotic animals (their real focus is the larger cats, mammals, etc...). Some probably no not like privates keeping hots but most of the people only hear the bad horry stories and news clippings.

for most zoo herpers, a major point of of problem is the lack of antivenin kept in general by the private world and/or lack of offical training or permiting required...ie. you can pick up the phone and order a mamba with little to no real requirments.

I know many private folks that do a great job & many that do a much better job than lots of zoos.

We all really need to get together and cooperate - being proffessional should be all our goals & that doesn't have anything to do with if you work at a zoo or work herps at home.

In your post you said "A year or so back when the AZA meeting was in New Orleans, Thomas Eimermacher of SHHS was asked to do a presentation for the AZA meeting. It was regarding "Private Venomous Keeping" and included a Q & A at the end of the talk."

Did he give that talk? I was at the meeting as a steering committtee member on one of the TAGs and I do not recall that talk ever happening....Of course I could have phased out! I've been known to do that.

-Ruston

Yes, Ruston...he gave the talk..

Al
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Confidence is what you feel before you comprehend the situation.

Having been a former keeper at a zoo, and, a long time AZA member (who also gets all of the various emails, listserves, newsletters, etc.) I have seen a bit of a shift in mentality among today's keepers. On the keeper level, many do have their own private collections and many are actively involved with their local herp societies, the IHS, etc.. Unfortunately, there is also a trend to have Curators and even Ass't Curators with PhD's (not necessarily a bad thing) who may have a lot of research knowledge, and have had many studies published, but they don't have a clue about proper husbandry and lack the instincts to properly care for a large collection. I won't name institutions but I know of one personally where animals are in horrid condition for a nationally acclaimed zoo (not to mention mismarked). They have a curator who doesn't understand basic husbandry nor does h/she have the slightest knowledge of current advances in husbandry. It is usually these folks who portray AZA as a "high and mighty" institution where the private sector has no business keeping any reptile as a pet. In this case, we need a trickle-up effect from the keepers to the administrators. Some zoos, perhaps many, are at the cutting edge in developing private-public partnerships between the zoos and the private sector while others have a completely different philosophy. Every bad apple private individual who gets bit by their pet cobra and then drains the zoo supply of A/V gives more fuel to the fire that the zoos are right in their assessment (although that is obviously not the case as zoos have had their share of bad mistakes).

As Al said, though, there are a ton of novice keepers who have no business keeping venomous reptiles....this very forum is evidence of that. Our hobby, though seemingly tightly regulated, is not really regulated at all. There really is no national body or "voice" of reason where we can work closely with lawmakers, other organizations, etc. Instead, we are a largely fragmented group and I think that's a big reason why we are seeing state after state, county after county, city after city, adopting stringent reptile ownership laws (or in many cases, all out bans). Its a complex problem with no easy solution....and I think I just got way off the subject!!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Al,
>>Your quote in the post below,
>>
>> One of the AZA's biggest gripe towards the private keepers second only to the lack of A/V is that private keepers cannot care for their animals correctly.
>>
>>Where, or who did you get this from?
>>I have never seen this or heard of this! I have been a AZA member for years and I know a lot of members who have private collections and I get every update, mandate, newsletters,email post, meetings minutes,etc.from the AZA and I have never seen their stance on this subject.
>>Please explain.
>>
>>Randal
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

My Gripe with the AZA is simple... once you are certified, you can't trade or sell many animals to private individuals.

Imagine this, if I were AZA certified and my Boelen's Pythons or Beaded Lizards produced babies, I could not remain in good standing in the AZA if I were to sell or give them to Rob Carmichael. Rob is entirely more qualified than I am to keep these reptiles, but chooses not to run his facility affiliated with the AZA.

The AZA rules are good when it comes to animal care, but entirely self-serving self-promoting when it comes to dealing with other herpers.

Doug T
Doug Taylor Reptiles

Doug, I couldn't agree with you more. Although I am a member of AZA, I will never have my facility accredited with AZA for those very reasons (and much more). I don't necessarily have a beef with them (okay, I do in some instances) but I don't want to operate my facility under such restrictive bureaucratic mumbo jumbo.....I couldn't do 80% of what I do now if I was AZA accredited which is why I left the zoo industry to start me own facility that would provide far more opportunities to give the public safe, close up interaction with reptiles. There are some wonderful AZA zoos that do things right so I'm not knocking everyonel. One example is the relationship between animal staff and the public. At a typical AZA zoological institution, you will find that there is a great amount of separation between animal keepers and the public...there is a perception of snobbiness due to the apparent lack of willingness by animal keepers to interact to the public. At my facility, my staff are expected to interact with the public. We spend a great deal of time and energy in being "on the floor" to talk to the public, answer questions, and, of course, provide hands on opportunities. Although this takes valuable time out of my animal keeper's day, it is money and time well spent. Folks love to come and hang out here just because they can talk to my staff in a relaxing, informal atmosphere. My staff are also expected to give many talks and serve as educators when school groups come to visit; they develop many, many skills while working for me. Even as a Curator, I have quite a few animals under my direct care (primarily venomous but also work with our resident raptors)....I'm a professional crap cleaner just like my animal keepers. I also teach, lecture and talk to the public on a daily basis and I feel that's something that more curators should do (instead of walling themselves into their office doing who knows what!)....I would hate to have my position turn into a 100% administrative role; and it won't! Someone mentioned another accreditation organization for zoos that is in the making that may be well catered to smaller institutions such as mine; we'll see what they have to say.

>>My Gripe with the AZA is simple... once you are certified, you can't trade or sell many animals to private individuals.
>>
>>Imagine this, if I were AZA certified and my Boelen's Pythons or Beaded Lizards produced babies, I could not remain in good standing in the AZA if I were to sell or give them to Rob Carmichael. Rob is entirely more qualified than I am to keep these reptiles, but chooses not to run his facility affiliated with the AZA.
>>
>>The AZA rules are good when it comes to animal care, but entirely self-serving self-promoting when it comes to dealing with other herpers.
>>
>>Doug T
>>Doug Taylor Reptiles
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob

Sorry to harp on this but seems like allot of folks are pointing fingers and generalizing. I too can be frustrated with some of the AZA regs and rules at times as it is mostly a mammals centered organization. But I don't think the lack of communication between keepers & public have anything to do with being AZA or not.

As a general rule people who work with animals generally prefer the company of animals to people thus they prefer not to talk with folks...Not that is a right or should be accpeted but it is our failures as managers to make it an important part of their jobs (& frankly I am guilty of it nad need to work on it).

I don't think you are harping on the subject as making generalizations is always a dangerous thing and is something I probably should have stated more clearly. I am just basing my comments on observations I have made from both being a zookeeper at an AZA institution and from visiting other facilities. The rules and regulations of AZA certainly indicate a mammal-centered organization and I find it amusing at some of the requirements which have little to do with proper keeping of reptiles. One of the reasons why I started my own facility was to do things the right way; getting keepers and the general public in close proximity with one another. I have seen so many valuable aspects of this relationship that is sorely missing at many of the larger zoological institutions. Sure, docents and volunteers are great but they are not the "real" staff who care for the animals. I also great cherish my time in an AZA setting and that certainly has molded my philosophy of where I am at today.

>>Rob
>>
>>Sorry to harp on this but seems like allot of folks are pointing fingers and generalizing. I too can be frustrated with some of the AZA regs and rules at times as it is mostly a mammals centered organization. But I don't think the lack of communication between keepers & public have anything to do with being AZA or not.
>>
>>As a general rule people who work with animals generally prefer the company of animals to people thus they prefer not to talk with folks...Not that is a right or should be accpeted but it is our failures as managers to make it an important part of their jobs (& frankly I am guilty of it nad need to work on it).
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

AZA does not specifically forbid the acquistion or disposition of animals from private sources. It is usually left up to individual zoos and their policy makers. The aza only requires you show some form of good faith effort to make sure animals are going to reputable sources.

For example I can surplus animals to the private sector but I am required to put them on the AZA listserve first for a specific amount of time. Then I must decide if the paper work (and there is allot) is worth going through to send out one or 2 animals. It is often much easier to send animals out in bulk to a dealer for practical purposes as well as simply avoiding any complicating issues like conflict of interests, liability, etc...

-Ruston

I'm glad you touched on this. Although we are not AZA accredited, we deal with many zoos who are. We have acquired quite a few of our exhibit animals from these institutions and despite a lot of paper work and background checks, it is well worth the effort for me. It is actually quite refreshing to see so many large zoos willing to work with smaller agencies like mine (and we, too, have been able to help out large zoos in filling certain needs for specimens).

>>AZA does not specifically forbid the acquistion or disposition of animals from private sources. It is usually left up to individual zoos and their policy makers. The aza only requires you show some form of good faith effort to make sure animals are going to reputable sources.
>>
>>For example I can surplus animals to the private sector but I am required to put them on the AZA listserve first for a specific amount of time. Then I must decide if the paper work (and there is allot) is worth going through to send out one or 2 animals. It is often much easier to send animals out in bulk to a dealer for practical purposes as well as simply avoiding any complicating issues like conflict of interests, liability, etc...
>>
>>-Ruston
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

While yes the trend to hire PhD and advanced life sci degrees is increasing it should be viewed as a positive thing. While yes you will find some folks who may be out of touch with the collection & down to earth husbandry this is not always the case and unfair to generalize across the board. Even with these folks, they have lots to offer to a well rounded herp program and should utilize their supervisors and/or lead keepers to handle husbandry issues.

as for mismarked exhibits or cages I can honestly say I have some but if you do not have the ability to handle graphics (depending on how they are designed) on the ground level - I know it can take months to get a sign fixed or replaced.

I think you hit the nail on the head about the hobby being fragmented!

Ruston

Ruston, I am in complete agreement with you and I always hate to generalize because as I said, overall, there are many outstanding herp departments at zoos (and I'd like to think I came from one as well at Brookfield when Ray Pawley was at the helm). I am a big believer in the power of education (I'm finishing a PhD myself) and while having a Curator with a PhD can be an advantage for a zoo, in several instances that I am aware of, it has proved to be a negative effect; could be personality conflicts, who knows. The problem that I have is that the "top brass" at zoos who hire key positions of leadership oftentimes go after those who are well known from a published standpoint (makes the zoo look real good...smart PR move in terms of visibility) but provide little direction towards keeping a viable and healthy herp collection...in my opinion, it has to start at the top in terms of level of actual husbandry/breeding experience and if they don't have the practical experience, it becomes difficult to create that level of respect for the subordinates. Education is important so I certainly don't want to allude otherwise; I know that I have had many doors open due to my degrees and anyone who believes that education is not important, are just fooling themselves.

>>While yes the trend to hire PhD and advanced life sci degrees is increasing it should be viewed as a positive thing. While yes you will find some folks who may be out of touch with the collection & down to earth husbandry this is not always the case and unfair to generalize across the board. Even with these folks, they have lots to offer to a well rounded herp program and should utilize their supervisors and/or lead keepers to handle husbandry issues.
>>
>>as for mismarked exhibits or cages I can honestly say I have some but if you do not have the ability to handle graphics (depending on how they are designed) on the ground level - I know it can take months to get a sign fixed or replaced.
>>
>>I think you hit the nail on the head about the hobby being fragmented!
>>
>>Ruston
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

If memory serves me, didn't Rick Hahn start this whole thing years ago to foster a relationship between zoos and the private sector? I missed the first two in Frederick, Md.(Hood College, I think), but I made a number of them after that. The general attitude at the time was that, yes, there's a bit of work done in the private area, but us zoos are where it's at. Little did they know, and there WAS some overlapping (I'm talking ALL herps, now)of zoo personnel to private work, how much work was being done in the private sector. Trooper Walsh is probably one of the best examples at the time of a keeper/private person. Many zoos had an elitist attitude (some still do), but that changed quickly as CB offspring produced some serious money that allowed some private individuals to do a lot more, with better facilities, than some zoos.
There simply aren't enough zoos/facilities, as opposed to private people doing the work, now. Times have changed....and some attitudes haven't. With tight budgets at most facilities, sometimes the only way to get the animals zoo keepers wanted to work with that weren't "money displays" were by either trading/buying from private breeders, or selling excess breeding/CB stock. Those were the zoos that did better and had both a better exhibit, and expanded the knowledge of their keepers.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Found this on API's website. Thought it somewhat fit into this discussion.

"The serious problems associated with the private exotic animal ownership have led groups as diverse as the American Veterinary Medical Association, the United States Department of Agriculture, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Animal Control Association, and the American Zoo and Aquarium Association to oppose the private ownership of certain exotic animals."

http://www.api4animals.org/a3b_exotic_pets.php
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org