Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently bought a trio of Montium Chams 1:2 two weeks ago.
one female died two days later and now for the last 3 days my male hasn't been active keeps its eyes closed and is constantly an overall red color (maybe stressed color).
I have an out door cage about 4 feet tall 2 feet deep and 5 feet wide, split into 3 sections. I have my montiums in one, Quads in another, and Jacksons in the last.
The cage containing the Montiums and Quads are on a mist system (3-4 times a day) and are heavily planted. I live in California so the weather is warm (good enough for my Quads which I had for over a year and are doing fine). This is why I don't understand my Montiums condition!
We had rain for a couple days so I thought he wasn't active because he was cold, now "the sun is shinning, the weather is nice" and still no change.
He still has a grip and opens his mouth when I grab him. Not sure if he is eating or drinking. On the scale he lost .2 grams over a 2 week period.
Please help!
BTW they were WC, freashly imported when I bought them, all were eating and drinking upon arrival home!
Thankx MIKEY,

Sorry to hear of the death and sickness. Have then been to the vet for parasite checks? I am a novice to this and it sounds like you have a good deal more husbandry experience then I do. I am just curious.

I am also curious, have you talked to the seller?

If it was me I would take him to the vet before he dies.

Montiums need a very well lit enclosure, so if you have some sort of shad blocker instead of a screen, this could be adding to the difficulties you are having.

They thrive with live plants as opposed to fake, and do require tons of humidity and water to simulate their higher altitude "cloud forests" of Cameroon, where it often reaches 80-100% Humidity. It is suggested to give them a pipette/dripper to drink fine water drops. Provide tall trees, shorter shrubs and even some dirt and ground cover plants. I'm sure since its outdoor, you are using live plants, so I guess that's covered.

In the hot season, they will even hide in the shad or holes in the trees, coming out when it rains. In the constant rainy season they strive to bask and catch all sun they can during midday.

Daytime Temperatures should be 25-27 Degrees Celsius (77-80 F). It can sometimes go up to over 30C (86F) but I don't' think it would be safe to have that as a constant. 15C (59F) is supposed to be the best night temperature.

Hopefully something here can help you. Best of luck to you and your new babies.
Source: Petr Necas, Chameleons "Natures Hidden Jewels"
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I think your problem is a combination of parasites and stress. You stated that you keep groups of chameleons together. THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA! Chameleons are anti social S.O.B's! They rarely get along well if kept together year round. The onyl instance where they can be kept together is..

1. During the breeding season

2. If the cage is large and full of greenery. By large i mean dimsensions of 6x6x6 for a trio with DENSE foliage, like 5 Ficus tree's

Your cage is too small for a pair. Only one chameleonn should be kept in that size of a cage.

Another problem is that your montium male is seeing the quads and jacksons chameleons. He is not only sressing by the sight of them, he is attempting to challenge them because he considers them to be invading his territory. All of this stress is TERRIBLE for a freshly imported cham, more or less any chameleon!

Take him to a vet please. Vets are absolute geniouses when it comes to health issues.

Where in CAli do ya live? I live in a suburb of San diego called poway. I know that right now NO chameleon could handle our weather! The day temperatures are about mid eightees. The nights hover above freezing. Such radicals in weather are bad for chameleons. If you live on the coast, then you should be fine.

Im sorry if i sounded harsh, but you have a few holes in your husbandry techniques that need to be fixed. Please post any morequestions you may have!
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eric

maybe I shouldn't keep the males and females housed together, but I asure you I built my cage right (maybe not big enough to house 3 pairs).
The three cages are seperated by a transparent but not clear plastic (kind of like a shower door). My chameleons cannot see one another (out side the 1:1)
I live in SoCal near Long Beach. I bought them from LLL down your way in Ocean Side.
Im going to take the advice I recieved and talk to LLL and take him to a vet. But, has anybody heard of this happening and what is the outcome in most instance?
Thanx Mikey

The problem is, you are most likely seeing the cumulative effects of stress, dehydration from their multiple shipping trips, effects of parasites, possible infections, etc. so it may not be any one thing. The fact that they both showed signs of sickness so soon after arrival may mean they were just barely OK before you got them (how long did LLL have them, what was their setup like?). If LLL shotgunned for parasites it may have been a toxic dose of meds they are too sensitive to. If they had barely arrived at LLL, who knows how the wholesaler treated them. All in all, the move to your cage may have been the straw that broke the camel's back rather than something you did yourself. That color is a very bad sign for montiums. If you have the female, take them both to a vet so possibly a necropsy on her can give clues to what might be wrong with the male. Good luck!

LLL said they "just" got them in. I then asked about the parasite shot and the lady said they only give them shots if they show signs of sickness (doing so if they were ok would be too much of a good thing). their setup was just a mesh cage with a single plant in it with (counting the three I bought) about 3 male and 4 females in it. She pulled them from the back so I guess they barley got them in and hadn't the time to set them up yet!
Taking them to a vet tomorrow, hopfully I caught it in time!
thanks to all that helped me, i'll let you know how thing go!
Mikey

Keeping more than one chameleon over the age of 3 or 4 months together is not a good idea with most species. It causes a lot of needless stress even if it doesn't show....and there are enough stresses that just come with being captive.

It also is not wise to keep newly imported chameleons (or even ones that are new to your collection) so close to established ones. You could lose all of them if the new ones are carrying a virus (such as the adenovirus).

I have seen fresh WC's die quickly several times in my experience (not montiums, but other so-called montane chameleons). Some just can't handle being captive and just "give up" and die...but since the female already died, maybe they all have some illness.

I don't know what the temperature is during the day where you are this time of year, but they definitely need to warm up quite a bit during the day....and if they are sick, IMHO its not the time to have them too cool at night either. You said that you thought he wasn't active because he was cold....so maybe you should have moved him to a warmer place?

This site gives you the temperature ranges for healthy montiums...
http://adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chmontium.html

And another one with good information...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/montium.html

Here's some more information indicating that montiums and quads live in different environments/elevations...
http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0022-1511&volume=037&issue=01&page=0203
"Chameleo montium is restricted to lower elevations and markedly separated in elevational distribution from its congeners, which are exclusively found in the submontane forest."

You said..."He still has a grip and opens his mouth when I grab him"...that's not unusual for even a sick chameleon.

You said..."Not sure if he is eating"...is he pooping?

Re: drinking....have you tried dripping water on the very end of his nose to encourage him to drink?

Good luck with the two remaining ones..I hope they will do alright for you. I hope that he will live long enough for you to get him to the vet's.

I had always thought montiums were far LESS heat tolerant than quads,
deremensis and jackson's. Part of th ereason I haven't gotten them.

Keeping any montane species outdoors in southern California is a
challenge, misting system or not.

They're stressed form importation and holding, lack of water and
humidity, and inadequate food. When they have to deal with temps that
are too high, it's not going to help.

As far as keeping them together, I've read abotu montiums living in
groups, oftne sleeping right on top of each other. It's entirely posisble
that in a large outdoor cage, acclimated healthy aniamals might be ok
together. But definatly not sick and stressed animals. When they're
healthy, if you've got a large enough cage, it might work. But it's never a
good idea with fresh imports and sick animals. territorial stress is the
last thing they need, ands the easiest to prevent.

Liddy kammer just posted about their vet in SoCal. Not sure where you live in relation to him, but you can check out the thread below (Dr. Tom Greek, DVM).

beardiedude said vets ar "geniuses" but unfortunately that is not always true. Many vets have little or no chameleon experience. I would guess there are more in your area though simply due to how many more people have them comapred to northern climes.

Here are some vet link for you just in case.
The Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians (ARAV)
http://www.arav.org/
Articles and listings of vets in your area

Vet listings by state
http://www.anapsid.org/vets/index.html#vetlist

Vet Connection
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/
Real people experiences - has state listing
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I dont know. I have read several places that any WC animal you get including LTC should be treated for parasites because it can do nothing but good. I am not an expert but it makes sense to me.

I mean 50-100 bucks to treat the animal as opposed to buying an animal that will die. I will never buy a WC animal that has not been treated unless there is a serious discount so I can do it myself. I wold like the market in general to increase the price of WC chams to include this. Again I may be talking out of a hole other then the one in my face but This is just my opinon.

Hope you get yours to the vet before you are out more money.

In my opinion, Montiums are more montane than even Jacksons. I'd bet they're heat stressed. Bring them inside and get them to about 75F to78F for a few days. It was WAY warm in SoCal a few weeks ago. Mine stressed INSIDE when I added a heat lamp on one side of the cage. My Jacksons can take it much warmer than can my Montiums.

Bill

You are definately right! Not all vets are geniouses with chameleons. We southern californians do have lots of reptile vets though who in general are VERY good with chameleons. I will admit that i was wrong in that post because i have seen absolutely RETARTED vets pretend to know every thing about lizards when they only know the bare minimums.

As for the vet the kammers go to, he is near san diego. Mike is located in Longbeach which is about a 45 minute drive away (if he is lucky!)
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eric

a good vet is worth the drive. My cham vet is 45 minutes. My beardie vet is 10 minutes, but he does not know as much about chams (and he admits it) so my ARAV vet is worth the trip. I am lucky to have him in the area and I made sure I had one before I ever got my herps, many poeple don't bother until crisis sets in, which is often too late.

just be careful about the "blanket" statements. We all learn that nothing is black and white in the world - animals, people, opinions
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Took him to the Vet today, Vet said:
possible lack of heat stress (you guys said that too!) COLD SHOCK!
she went ahead a gave him a de-wormer. Said it didn't look as if he needed an antibiotic. She also recommend I force feed to get his strength up. (How and what would I force feed him? I got a little feeding syringe?)
I did move him to a seperate cage were he would be warmer and away from the female were he would be less stressed. I will buy some over the counter de-wormer and treat my female (does the over the counter med work as good as the vets med?)
Thanks again for your help everybody and I hope he gets better!
Mikey

you have lots of new questions and this thread may be overlooked since it is down far. I would repost and begin a new thread so experienced keepers can reply.

The only comment I can make is that Flukers' Repta-aid (sold at all chain (ick) pet stores) is one thing to use for feeding. it is about $10 or less. Be sure to get for insectivores and follow directions since it is dosed by weight. There is also a "bug juice" recipe on adhcam.com.

Do you have a good digital scale thate measures in grams? If not, I suggest you get one (about $20-25) so you can track his weight.

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Did the vet check a fecal sample before giving the anti parasitic? Are you going to check the female before giving her a toxic med? A cham that is sick already will have more trouble metabolizing the toxin, and if the parasite load is high all the dying parasites could overwhelm it. I really don't like the common vet practice of treating for parasites without checking first. It CAN hurt! A cham that is not sick and doing OK may not need treatment (parasites become a problem when the cham is under physical stress). Until you know what specific parasites are present don't just "shotgun" it. Dosages and side effects can be very tricky.

I had a new import that was in bad shape. I took it to a vet as soon as I got it knowing it was in trouble. The vet insisted on giving a parasite med. I disagreed, but got talked into it. This cham was unable to deal with the meds, the toxin, the parasites it probably had, dehydration, who knows what else. It never recovered. I still feel it should not have been treated at that point.

I wouldn't force feed him unless he isn't eating on his own. I would try "assist feeding" him if he will drink when you drip water on the end of his nose. While he is drinking, try to stick an insect into his mouth while its open. Often this will work if they aren't too sick. I always squish the head of the insect to prevent it from biting the chameleon before I do this. Softer insects like silkworms or wax worms would be easier for him to chew too when he's not in good condition.

If he really won't eat on his own or by "assist feeding" him, there is a "bug juice" recipe at this site...
http://adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

I'm sorry to hear that the vet gave him a dewormer without checking a stool sample to see if he had worms....and without waiting for him to have time to acclimate. If he has a heavy parasite load it will cause him to have a lot of waste to get rid of when he's already not in the best of health. But...maybe she had a reason.

Glad to hear that you separated him from the rest.

What temperature is the new cage?

You said..."I will buy some over the counter de-wormer and treat my female"...if you don't know what parasites she has or even if she has parasites, you could be doing more harm than good doing this. Although some anti-parasite meds kill more than one kind of parasite, some parasites need specific anti-parasite medications to kill them. Also...if she is gravid, you may damage her eggs.

I hope he gets better!

thanks for all the help! his new temp is about 62 - 64 at night and around 72- 76 rheough out the day (being cooler in the morning and warmer at noon).
I think I will hold off on the de-worming of my female since she does look pretty good still (LLL said, " My advice would be to get Panacure (dewormer), and administer that to the remaining montiums. I would probably advise doing that at the start though in the future with any imported chameleon.)!?!
I will give him a few days and see how he does! when I do I will post a new tread.
Thankx again
MIKEY

Regarding the worming....its a difficult situation when you get in a new WC chameleon. If it has a heavy parasite load its definitely not good for the chameleon...however...if you treat it the chameleon's system has to cope with all the dead bodies that it has to get rid of. This can be too much for the chameleon's system to deal with and it can result in death of the chameleon.

Its said (and I believe it) that as the chameleon settles down and gets used to its new situation, the parasite numbers level off and likely even decrease. Not only that IMHO giving the chameleon time to get used to its new home helps its stress level and thus gives its immune system time to improve and it gives you time to get its hydration levels up to what they should be.

Also...by just chosing any anti-parasite medication and giving it to the chameleon and not having a fecal done, you don't know if you are treating a chameleon that doesn't even have parasites...and you don't know that the type of anti-parasite medication that you chose will even kill the parasites if it does have any. I don't believe in just doing it for the sake of doing it.

As long as you practice good hygiene and keep any newly obtained WC's individually, if they do have parasites, it should be okay.