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I keep seeing Granites and Yellowbellies advertised as being Het for Ebony.

Is this correct? It just doesn't seem correct to me? Since Ebony is not a homozygous form (or am I wrong on that too?) how can there be a het form?

I hate genetics.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Grabite X Yellow Belly = Ebony

Only Amir has produced this animal....... The Graziani Ebony may not be the same thing and it doens't look exactly like Amir's ebony..Only breeding will tell

I ment Granite X Yellow Belly = Ebony Amir's line

We are assuming that a genetic granite bred to a yellowbelly will make an ebony - I'm sure we'll know in a few more months how true this is (there have got to be a bunch of people with ebony projects this season), but for now - since there doesn't seem to be anything genetically different with the two animals that Amir used to create his Ebony so it's safe to assume...
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I'll be breeding a YB Granite X Granite next season. Who knows what will come out of that!

it's safe to assume... Let's get somthing straight here..Only one person bred a line of granites to a line of yellow belly and produce an EBONY........... Your assumption that all granites will produce Ebony's when bred to YB is a little over confident at this time... Not all granite's are genetic and it's a huge leap to think all granite lines will produce ebony's only Amir's Line has done it... Your assumption is ludicrous..How long have you been in this Biz tosha..Assumption is to big of problem, to many bottom feeders are assuming their BP's are some new genetic morph when at the end of the day all they have is a nice normal.... People Raise your cool stuff up and line breed..If you get somthing new stand a top the mountain and celebrate but don't start your celebration to quickly....

When I emailed Amir about a couple of his projects last year his response regarding the Ebony was that as far as he knews there is nothing special (different) about the genetics of the pair that created the Ebony. If that is true - then any genetic granite bred to any genetic yellowbelly would in theory produce an ebony.

I am going by the words of the person who hatched the darn thing.

That is not the point of this thread anyway, but thanks.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I think it's safe to assume that a GENETIC GRANITE x het ivory will produce an ebony. Just because Amir was the first to do it doesn't mean his line is the only that can produce it. And what does it matter how long Tosha has been in the "biz"?

>>Assumption is to big of problem, to many bottom feeders are assuming their BP's are some new genetic morph when at the end of the day all they have is a nice normal.... People Raise your cool stuff up and line breed..If you get somthing new stand a top the mountain and celebrate but don't start your celebration to quickly....
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Ryan Farris

Guess it didn't make it for some reason.

After the quote:

What does this have to do with this thread? Are you talking about genetic granites?

Heh, sorry bout that.
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Ryan Farris

i have two clutches cooking now. the first 7 eggs the second 6 eggs both from hold back unproven stripe granites i got from ian gniazdowski @ outback reptiles. both were bred by my yellow belly poss het ghost. i will be hoping for some ebonys and will post pics if i produce any. i would rather know how jared horenstein produced the super stripe? I WANT THAT! i also bred a blonde pastel poss het ghost to a unproven granite. will have eggs from her any day now. keeping my fingers crossed for something cool.

Can you call a Cinn a Het Pewter? Can you call a Pastel a Het Pewter?

I do agree that 90% of all granites will prove to be nothing more than nice normals. If someone is selling a Granite as a Het Ebony, it better be from Amirs line of proven Granites. I am 99% sure the EmberBall is a new Fire line, but I am not going to sell the Ember as a Fire until proven that way.

Exactly... My point is that no one can call their granites het anyhting until proven.... Tosha you asked the question.... if it was correct.... and you got an obvious answer.. ( No Granite is Het Ebony unless it is the exact granite that produced the ebony ). The Ebony could of been a fluke, even Amir knows more breeding has to be done... Remember Jared's Yellow Stripe??? He waited to produce another one before he called it genetic... What does that tell ya?? Prove it.... Prove it.... Prove it.....

Real experience will always prevail girls and boys.. I can write emails to other breeders all day long and assume someone elses opinions and ideas.. I go one step better, I try to prove morphs out myself and the hard work does pay off once in a while.... Like I said Real Experience counts.... People seem to forget who reads these boards too.......

( No Granite is Het Ebony unless it is the exact granite that produced the ebony ).

That's like saying Graziani Pastels are the only Pastels that produce Bumblebees.
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Ryan Farris

Simply because the other pastel lines have been proven out. Just because you go get yourself a few granite looking bp's doesn't mean your granites are the same granite genetics that produced the ebony. Now if you buy a granite from Amir that is a sibling to the ebony you could only determine that that granite is a possible het until proven other wise. So far Amir's Granite Bred to Amir's yellow Belly is the only breeding that created an Ebony. SK bred a granite to a YB and got YB's in a small clutch. SO either they missed the odds and have to re through the dice or thier line is kaput on ebonies.. Like I said to many people jump to assumption and think they have the magic genetic ingredients and some are wrong and some right, the breeder's in the right have the ebonies to show to the world, the ones that have yet to prove thier genetics are waiting to prove them, and then there is the other's......

.... and that wasn't my intentions. This argument has already been hashed out - case in point - look at the argument from last year - can a yellowbelly be called a het Ivory even if it doesn't come from a proven line? - if you go back you'll see a resounding yes. Of course Amirs ebony can be a fluke and yeah there are lots of granites that aren't genetic THAT IS NOT THE POINT.

So dropping the symantics again - assuming just for the sake of argument - granite x yb = ebony, if ebony is not homozygous: How could it have a het?

If we can't get past the whole "there is only one ebony" thing lets try this:

Is a pastel het for bumble bee? or is it het for super pastel?

Or now that we know that the superstripe is genetic - can a YB het for super stripe if the super stripe is not homozygous?
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Het is used for reference to having 1/2 of a pair of allels since granite and yellowbelly as far as we know are not on the same allel then a granite is not het for ebony whether it is a genetic granite or not. It is half of what you need to produce an ebony. Like you said, a pastel is not het for bumblebee, otherwise breeding a pastel to a pastel would create bumblebees.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

>
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I hate to repeat everyone else, but you lost the point of the thread when you went into your need to educate the populous of the forum with your ranting. It is all assumption at this point - and isn't that the fun part of all of our work? All they stated was that if, as Amir has said, his was just a granite, and just a yellow belly, then yes, it is all quite possible - lets see what hatches. It will be interesting to see!

... and this is just conjecture, but what if the yellow belly that Amir used was also genetic granite and he didn't notice because of subtle granite markings or whatever? Has anyone done a gen granite to gen granite breeding? Could the ebony actually be the super form of granite? Like I said this is just conjecture and even if it is true there would not (in my opinion) be any one who could claim yet to have het for ebony granites but is there any reason that this could not be the case?
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I have Balls!

Proven genetic granite x proven genetic granite = more granites - its been done and they have shown the morph to be dominant (there is no visual super form).

Amir has stated several times that as far as he knows there are not any special or mystery ingredients to either of the parents. This season he'll be breeding the Ebony back to mom and sister so we'll see what happens from there.

If he thought that only his line of granite or YB would produce the Ebony - I'm sure he would have milked it for all it's worth (no offense meant to Amir) but he has clearly stated that be believes that "Granites" (meaning a proven genetic line) bred to YBs will make Ebonies. It could be proven to be incorrect or a 1/16 chance or there may be a secret something somewhere.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"Proven genetic granite x proven genetic granite = more granites - its been done and they have shown the morph to be dominant (there is no visual super form)."

Ok now, I am very confused!!!!!!!!!

Who proved it to be dominant?

cause when you look at RDR's site he says this;

"I produced three baby Granites from four eggs.......so I would think this is a dominant trait"

But then under the albino granit part he say's this;

".........so if this is genetic.............I would hope it is simple recessive. Producing two years in a row from her and not seeing any visual "Granites" ( not albino ) tells me that the "Granite part" is not dominant."

After reading that I get the idea that no one knows for sure what is going on with the granites.

Is it that some granits are dominant, and some are recessive? If so, could it have something to do with the ebony?
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

No offense ment to Ralph - but the last time I checked his morph pages were a little outdated - maybe hes updated them lately - I don't know - I do beleive that he does have a line of genetic granites now - I also think there have been a few people that have done the granite x granite breedings - with varying results - off the top of my head I think RK Reptiles because I have a picture of their clutch in my computer and there was someone else, name slips my mind now. I know was discussing it with them in Anaheim - sorry - don't remember talked to a lot of people that day.

yeah - there is always a possibility that there are varying genetics to the granite.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

( and this is just conjecture, but what if the yellow belly that Amir used was also genetic granite and he didn't notice because of subtle granite markings or whatever? Has anyone done a gen granite to gen granite breeding? Could the ebony actually be the super form of granite? Like I said this is just conjecture and even if it is true there would not (in my opinion) be any one who could claim yet to have het for ebony granites but is there any reason that this could not be the case? )

John this is what has been line bred so far, RDR line bred his type one granites and type two's, he has yet to produce a physically diffrent looking super and feels that the clutch number was to low to make any certian determination of wether there is or is not a super. Some of the granites are more Granity in appearance then other's so that may be the super or just a higher degree of granite paattern from line breeding. Not enough has been done with these lines as of yet to prove or disprove the future of this gene. Not to mention the super may not have a pattern form however it may have a genetic form. Meaning a super granite may look like a Granite but when bred to a normal create all granites. Ball pythons have small clutches so to make assumptions on just 10-12 hatchlings is being a bit short sighted.. Ebony Genetics are totally understood too, Amir has been in this biz a long time as a reptiles distributor, can he decisevly say that it was only a granite male that was bred to his YB female? If it was then Can it be determined that that line of granites produces more granites? If the answer is yes then the next question is obvious..Is it Dominant, Recessive, Co-dom, CO recessive?? If it is Dominant or Co-dom then the anser to Tosha's questions is what Nita brought and the answer is a simple NO but the answer's are being assumed to those questions. SO Getting a real answer is still not totaly possible but if you widh to assume the answer by the facts that are out now then the answer is still no to calling granites het ebony's.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but thought I'd clear this up for you genetically speaking.

First, you said this, "Exactly... My point is that no one can call their granites het anything until proven....". Well, this is in and of itself problematic within the discussion going on here for the time being. First off, you can say that any animal with speckling within the pattern has a phenotype of "granite", but you can't say that it is a "genetically INHERITABLE granite" unless it has been proven through breeding trials, or in short, that it has a genotype of "het/homo granite" unless proven. Also, if you were stating the above in regards to the "Het. Ebony" argument, you are wrong, as it is impossible to be het ebony (see my post here: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1015485,1016621 , for my reasons why).

"No Granite is Het Ebony unless it is the exact granite that produced the ebony" is another thing you wrote, and once again you are wrong, since the Ebony isn't a double homozygous animal, and that would be the only way you could get away with calling it a "Het" Ebony, and that isn't even totally correct.

Now, I have a suggestions that might help y'all out a bit, why don't we just say that the non-yellowbelly parent of the Ebony, aka the granite, is an "Amir line Granite". Seems to clear up the confusion in my opinion, and then we can still use the term "Granite" to describe the phenotype(look) of unproven lines.

"Like I said Real Experience counts.... People seem to forget who reads these boards too......." now as to this gem you left for Tosha, seems you are being a little harsh (maybe you are one of Rene's lil monkeys flinging poop about), remember if you correct someone do it in a way that doesn't put their hackles up so that we can all learn something instead of having a flame war.

And lastly, if you are the one saying "Real Experience counts..." with regards to genetics, then you obviously don't qualify since your post is full of misinformation, but if you are talking about breeding ball pythons you would be correct, as would Tosha, since she has successfully produced young from eggs at home, same as you.

-Dan

P.S. I'm not trying to defend Tosha, she can do that all by herself, but I get a little pissed off when people needlessly flame AND post disinformation at the same time, have some humility and you might be able to learn something from time to time.

"since the Ebony isn't a double homozygous animal, and that would be the only way you could get away with calling it a "Het" Ebony,"

Would you please clarify for those of us who are "challenged" with understanding genetics.

Isn't the Breeding of 2 hets together make "homogonous" not "double Homogonous"?

Theoretically- Wouldn't Ebony w/ 2 co-dom alleles (granite Y-Belly) be a double co-dom, where the dreamsicle, for example (w/ 2 recessesive traits) be Double homogonous?

Sorry, I'm confused...

Best Regards,
A
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

No problem at all clarifying it for you.

Double Homozygous = Possessing 2 like alleles for each morph, and having two differnt morphs in same animal.

Double Co-Dom = Possessing 2 unlike traits in one individual

So for example, a snake could be Double Homo. and Double Co-Dom at the same time if, let's say, the animal was a Ivory(homo co-dom) and Super Pastel(homo co-dom) then it would be Double Homo, and Double Co-Dom at the same time. And yes I know this animal doesn't exist yet.

As for this you posted, "Isn't the Breeding of 2 hets together make "homogonous" not "double Homogonous"? ," first off, the correct term is HOMOZYGOUS(homogonous means thoroughly mixed lol), and secondly if you breed a het. albino and a het. albino together, you have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a homozygous albino(aka a visible albino), BUT if you breed a double het snow(het albino/het axanthic) to a double het snow, you have a 1 in 16 chance of producing a snow(aka double homozygous). If you want to apply it to the Ebony project, then you could say that the Ebony is not an Ivory(homo) granite, it is a yellowbelly(het) granite, and without knowing the genetics of the granite line he used, we can't be sure whether or not the animal is homo or het for the granite trait, though most likely it is only a het, since in order to be homo. Amir would have had to have had a breeding project set up and been breeding back to the mom, and it certainly doesn't sound that way.

"Theoretically- Wouldn't Ebony w/ 2 co-dom alleles (granite Y-Belly) be a double co-dom, where the dreamsicle, for example (w/ 2 recessesive traits) be Double homogonous?" Well, you might be right but we haven't seen a super(homo)out of Amir's granite line yet, so as of right now it looks to be a Dominant/Codom mixture. In order for it to be Co-Dom the Het needs to be visually different from both a normal and the homo. As far as the Dreamsicle, yes you are correct it is technically double homozygous for two seperate recessive traits (lav albino/pied).

Hope this helps a bit, feel free to post if you have more questions, or feel free to email me.

-Dan

You should of read further down, I think I in laymens turms agreed with Nita who straitened this all out, your a day light bro...

So this is tricky to explain without having any knowledge about Amir's breeding projects (man he sure needs to upgrade his website lol) but I think that we could hypothesize a bit as to what is going on.

First things first, it is impossible to even have a "Het Ebony" for one and this is why. The Ebony's genotype is one of the following, "Het. Ivory/Het. Mystery Gene"(This is the more likely of the two) or "Het. Ivory/Homo. Mystery Gene". Now the problem is this, in order to be "Het Ebony" the real Ebony would need to have a genotype of "Homo. Ivory/Homo. Mystery Gene" and if this was the case you could say that a "Het. Ivory/Het. Mystery Gene" double het. could be said to be "Het. for Ebony".

A good example of this was Ralph Davis' project last year for the "Dreamsicle" and "Striped Albino", both double recessive projects. Now in this example the Phenotype for a "Homo. albino/Homo. genetic striped" would be "Striped Albino", and the Phenotype for the "Homo. Pied/Homo. Lav. Albino" would be "Dreamsicle". Now the parents of both litters are double het for two recessives each, but you could call a double het for pied and lavender albino, "Het. for Dreamsicle", and most people would agree with you, even if semantically it would be incorrect since Dreamsicle is a designer morph (more than one genetic trait).

Hope this helps, and if you have any more questions let me know.

-Dan