Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a pic I took tonight of my 05 Leucistic Black Rat
(Don Soderberg stock) Most of my Ratsnakes, Kingsnakes, corns, etc. are the normal/ wild type, but these Leucistics are so stunning I broke down and purchased one, LOL. Thanks for looking.

Steve

Steve,

Those are really beautiful snakes, and Don really sells good stuff. I have SO many ideas and projects, but those are definitely on my "Eventually List". Good luck with it.

Dusty
Simply Subocs

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Nice one.I hope my pair will go this season.

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That is one very fine looking Pantherophis obsoletus. Not one of those bug-eyed creatures that are being sold all the time now. It looks to me like Don Soderberg does his best to selectively breed his leucistic American Rat Snakes and is a very selective breeder. Still I ask you, if the subspecies of P. obsoletus differ only in pattern and color, and because this snake is leucistic, and has no pigment producing cells, how can one tell that it is a “Black” Rat Snake and not a Gray, Yellow, Everglades, or Texas Rat Snake?

I have done searches on the web and can find no records of a leucistic Black Rat Snake ever being found in the wild. On the other hand the leucistic Texas Rat Snake that was used to produce the lines of leucistic Texas Rat Snakes today is well known and reported. Just to be clear, in no way am I trying to say that the breeder is giving out information that is not to the best of his knowledge true and accurate, but where is the evidence that a leucistic P. obsoletus was ever found in the wild before leucistic Texas Rat Snakes became plentiful in the trade.

The reason that I put in the caveat before they became plentiful in the trade is because people find escapees in the wild all the time here in this country. I know that they are now finding pythons in the Everglades, and those didn’t swim across an ocean or two to get here.

I would argue, that because a leucistic Pantherophis obsoletus has no distinguishing characteristics that define its subspecies, the subspecies should be left as undefined (left out). In all likelihood it is an intergrade, and one that was very well breed at that.

Again, I am not picking on anyone here. I am not questioning anyone’s honesty, but one has to admit that the issue begs the question, “How can you tell?”

I have heard also from others that there may be some questions on leucistic black rats, and how they came about. I was aware of the questions that surrounded their history before I made my purchase. In this particular case, it wasn't a big deal to me if they were 100 percent black rat or not. The smaller size and more laid back temperment (on average) were two of the factors on why I chose one of his Luecistic Black line over the Texas bloodline.

Steve

I have heard of the black rat history but can't remember where.... I remember hearing that a farmer found it in his barn somewhere along the east coast. But can't remember nything else. If people are so suspicious (I trust Don) then someone should run a blood test.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

I have also only heard good things about Don also. I don't question that he is reporting the truth as he knows it. What we don't know is the exact orgin of his stock. Did someone tell him a fib along the line.

A few years ago I got some nice Yellow Rats from an honest breeder, but these snakes did not have the classic black tongue of a yellow rat. I got the breeder to take a close look at the parrents. One did have a black tongue and the other's was red. The breeder was told by the person that he got his stock from that they were normal yellow rats. The guy that I got the snakes from was an honest person. He was just unaware that pure yellow rats should have black tongues.

Red tongued Yellow Rat Snake

This is from memory so it may not be 100% accurate but it is my understanding that Larry Rouche (sorry about butchering your last name Larry) of VA, hatched out some leucistics from his Rusty Black ratsnake line, they were originally WC adults that produced the first ones so....the purity was not questioned at the time. This info could have been lost through the years as I don't know if Larry is still working with snakes or not. If anyone knows where he is, he would be the one to talk to regarding the origins of the Black Rat Luecistics. And if he is still around pass along my email address and tell him to drop me a line!

Bart
Horridus@aol.com

I been working with rusties for a few yrs now and havn't produce a lucy... on the other side dewey and others has produce lucy from there rusties.

Hello, Elaphefan,
Your point is well taken with leucism in a group of animals that are so morphologically close, especially when you don’t see the normal colored adults.
…… How can you tell with leucistic animals? It comes down to the breeder/buyer’s ability to trace the lineage …….

Of course, I can't speak to verify the lineage of this animal, but I would like to contribute 2 points:

1. Don Soderberg is a pretty straight up guy. If he sells an animal as one thing, he believes it to the true.

2. In September, 1992, my job took me to spend 8 weeks in a burb of Cleveland, Oh.
One weekend I drove to Sandusky to try to find some Eastern Fox Snakes and visit a guy in a nearby town who advertised some Northern pines.
When I visited him he showed me a jewel.
He and friends had caught an adult, leucistic black rat in a barn there in northern Ohio.
She was gravid and had laid eggs. I believe this was legitimate because of this guy’s sincerity, body language, and enthusiasm.
More convincing was that the female had dermal scars so typical of adult wild caught animals and the adult had a longer/thinner head than a Texas Rat.
He also had a totally black male from the same barn.
I have not had to go back to that area since, so I have no idea of what became of the lineage.
I’m 99% sure I still have this fellows name in my records somewhere, handwritten on hard copy. I’ll try to find it.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

Look what I found on this very forum from 2002.
This is the guy I met in '92.
http://forum.kingsnake.com/rat/messages/10019.html
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Regards, Bill McGighan

....that leucistic black rat morph is not new-seen them for several years now-so i'm sure at least some,probably many, people are making a point of freshening the bloodlines by breeding them with some regular black rats-but why do i see so few,if any,leucistic black rats that don't have at least a little bit of that pop-eye syndrome?...i.e. if you have one that came from,say,a leucistic x het. for leucistic pairing,their eyes should look totally normal,right?

From my reading, the bug-eye trait is not related to the leucistic trait. I think that this trait got there thru a fluke, but because people were paying so much extra for a white snake, no one made it a point to not breed snakes that had the trait. So now you have a great many leucistic rats with the trait. It is kind of like pure breed dogs with hip problems.

As far as I know it doesn't hurt the snake. It is just ton a normal look for an obsoletus.

The leucistic BLACK RAT that I am aware of that fostered a line of more than one morph that M. Jolliff produces came from Vermillion Ohio (Near Lake Erie in Ohio - definitely not Texas). She was caught by Matt Meade. I have met with him personally. To my knowledge, he is still field herping but not taking Ohio animals due to burdensome state regs. and is keeping and probably breeding some great stuff. I think both Don Soderberg and Brian of BHP (who also sells lucys) are ethical and their leucistic Black Rats are legit. I paid more to get mine from Mr. Jolliff because I wanted to get Ohio genetics. If you are getting animals from Don or Brian, just ask them about the origins. I think they will tell you the truth. As far as I can tell, Texas Rats have only been a separate subspecie from black rats for about 50 years. That coupled with how common the leuscistic Texas rats are in the hobby make it very reasonable to question the origin of the leucistic black rats. I know I was suspicious at first.

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Jamie W.

(url)http://rosyboas.tripod.com(/url)

When Matt Meade collected this snake, did he report the find in any of the herpetological society journals? Was the snake a male or a female? How large was the snake? How close to human development was this snake found? How common were leucistic Texas Rat Snakes in the pet trade at the time? Were any being sold at that time in the area?

In science, there is a general rule that if there is more then one explanation for an event, the one that is the most plausible is the best until there exist evidence to the contrary.

An example of the use of this rule would be the finding of pythons in the Everglades. How did they get there? The most reasonable explanation is that someone let a gravid pet snake go. One could argue that they have always been there but no one up until now has ever found one. This is possible but highly unlikely. Even more unlikely is that some swam up here from the Amazon. I think you see my point.

One of the reasons why these snakes are so rare in the wild is because they are so easy for their predators to spot. They get eaten. The older this snake was, the less likely it came from a natural origin. The closer this snake was found to a developed area, the less likely it was of natural origin. Not for a second am I trying to say that it wasn't a truly native Black Rat that came from only wild stock, but I think that one always has to be skeptical of such a rare morph's origins.

Thanks for the info on Matt Meade. I have searched the web for this info before but was never able to come up with this information.

If Matt, Mike, Don or Brian are reading this, in no way am I questioning the honesty of any of you. I am just a very skeptic person by nature and scientific training.

Elaphefan,

With all do respect and, as someone who has field collected 50 years plus and never found an amelanistic, leucistic, or axanthic wild animal in the field (I do have an anerythristic corn that I caught, but they are more common), I fully understand you being skeptical on this.
But...
As I mentioned above in a reply, I met Matt, I saw the female in 1992, and have absolutely no doubts it was the real thing.
The fact that it was already an adult and gravid makes it less believable, I’ll admit, but for the reasons I outlined in an above reply, I’m convinced.

Rich Hahn of the Catoctin Mountain Zoo in Maryland also told me a story of a farmer bringing him a fully grown "white" Black Rat Snake, chopped into two halves…….
This was in 1970 that he related the story!!! Point being that even though the odds are against a leucistic or amel surviving to adult in the field, it apparently does happen!

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Regards, Bill McGighan

Thanks Bill. I do not question for a second the truth of what Matt told you. Matt said that he took the snake from the wild, then that part must be true. What can be questioned is the true orgin of the snake. (Remember the phyhons in the Everglades. How did they get there?) It could very well be that this was a leucistic Black Rat, but it could also have been a pet that escaped into the wild. The more remote the site of the find, the more likely that it was a true leucistic Black Rat. That was my point. It was not to question the truthfulness of Matt or any of the breeders.

There is a way to test the mtDNA of such a snake now a days to see if is from that geographic region, but no one is going to do all that.

Thanks to all for the info on the orgin of leucistic Black Rats in the trade. The idea that someone found such a creature in the wild is about as rare as hitting the Power Ball drawing.

Take care,
Rick

I would be more inclined to believe an animal like these lucies would be found around a barn because it would be a safer environment with a plentiful food source. Less big predators and lots of hiding places. The old Tom cat would be its biggest threat rather than say fox, coyote or raptor. I have only found an albino tadpole, so in my mind these things happen rarely but they do happen. Just my .02.
Todd Hughes

No offense Steve, but that snake kinda looks bugeyed to me. But definitely not the worst I've seen! The really bad ones I like to call "hammerheads." LOL.

dg