Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I noticed really low prices in the classifieds lately for Albino males, females and Hets. Saw a male albino for $1200 and a pair of hets for $599. Have also seen female hets listed at $350. I still see some albinos held in the $2000 to $2500 range, but the average price seems to be in the $1600 to $1900 range for albinos nowadays. Will those holding the higher prices have to drop or are the "price droppers" just looking for a quick return? What are peoples thoughts on this.

Hmmm.. I still sell My het pairs for $900-$1000. $599.a pair? Something wrong I'm sure.

where do you live?...........

..........I'll send you all mine this year.................

...............LOL
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are they really?.....wow

I paid three grand for a pair of young snakes, now, in less than a year, I see them advertised for fourfifty each. It could be worse, talk about playing catch-up!

Your right, It could be (Worse) But it could be better if the Dummies didnt drop there prices so fast LOL!

LOL - last year when my son was searching for his albino - there was one seller that had one advertised for $1900 - the going rate at the time was $2000-$2500 for a male - when I contacted the seller - he told me that he was getting quite a bit of threatening hate mail because he had dropped his price below $2K. I guess those die-hards who used to harass people have given up with more and more people selling below market. That's the price the industry is going to have to pay for expanding.

Ironic isn't it - without new people there wouldn't be a market but with all the new people the prices can't hold a decent market value anymore.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

$1500 for a morph that has been around for over 10 years is pretty darn good. I get sick and tired of people thinking just because the big guys can hold their prices that everyone should. It can't happen. If RDR, NERD, VPI, SK or Gulf Coast all have albino's at 2k (I just spent 2k at GCR for one) and Joe Blow has an albino at 2k, who is everyone gonna buy from. The answer is simple, the big guy that has spent years building their reputations. Us little guys simply cannot and should not be trying to compete with those that produce 100's of babies every year. If you want to try to sell all the offspring that you don't need at the same price as the big guys, that's your choice. But if that same Joe Blow put's his albino's for sale for 6 months at 2k and nobody replies how does that make him stupid for lowering the price to 1500 so he can make a little spending money? If everyone keeps talking trash about every new person that enters this hobby and tries to make a little side cash, we will run this market down the drain. Simply put, there are not thousands of "pet" owners out there willing to spend 1k plus on morph bp's with no intention of breeding them.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

.

I don't disagree with you - but it all comes down supply and demand - and those on the bottom of the pyramid have to drop thier prices considerably to sell the same animals as those that have been around a while longer. Eventually the big guys sell out and whats left at the end of the season belongs to the little guys who are now desperate to sell (don't have the time, money or facilities to house these snakes another season, need to pay off the cards or the taxman) and there is little demand for their animals.

The ball market has been hot and there have been a bunch of people aimed at jumping on board - but it's also brought in a lot of people whos only goal is to breed the @#$% out of their $2-5k snakes to make a quick buck, which in turn floods the market with a lot more snakes than it can handle. Compile that with the fact that no one really wants to buy from the little guy and the sole desire of many is to make money, you can't expect for the prices not to sink. And you are right few people want to spend thousands on a pet snake.

The problem is that the way it's going the "market" will eventually burn itself out - to think that there is an endless supply of people out there that will continue to pay top dollar for the hundreds of thousands of balls imported and born here every year is ridiculous. Hell - I've talked to lots of mid to small breeders who have "sold" very little this season but have traded many of their animals - that doesn't sound like a stable market to me - people unwilling to trade are going to have to drop their prices if they want to clear out the selves.

In the end this is just a cycle that a lot of markets go thru and when it's all said and done there will most likely still be a ball market in 10 years but the fad will have passed and the prices will be more reasonable.

Hell - one good resession and I'll bet you'll be able to buy just about any morph out there for a few grand.

I think I strayed a bit from topic and I'm probably wrong too.

LOL.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

...wait......I know it ......

......

.....prices are way high and low....you all just don't shop at Ball-Mart.........you all still think there are only 6 BIG breeders out there........uuummm.....there are hundreds of them and thousands of "little" guys that put out hundreds of balls each.......yea...little.......LOL........

.......it's all who you know and what you know and when you ask.........

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uuummm.........yea.......
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are they really?.....wow

Real Market? LOL - Care to enlighten? Actually - its not hard to figure out - just like any other business there are those that will pay retail, those that pay wholesale and those that get special discounts and the coveted boys club transaction.

You are correct - there are lots of breeders - my point exactly - too many- all levels - no "market" with all of the limitations that the ball market has can sustain so many people that are putting out so much. And there is no regulation. A market adjustment is at hand - it will come - always does.

Who cares - only those making their living off the animals - not me - I have a real job.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

..

there will always be people with too much cash and no brains and always people that never actually worked for their money.....
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are they really?.....wow

As long as there are people that are willing to continue to perpetuate the theory of an animal as an "investment" then there will continue to be high prices - however as time passes there will be less and less people that will be willing and/or able to pay those prices. Over the years we have seen plenty of markets that take of like gang busters in the end they self regulate either buy leveling, lowering or burning out completely. Unlike other successful markets snakes are neither a necessity, they don't become antiquated, don't need to be replaced frequently, nor are they really a popular mainstream trend, nor are they particularly rare or difficult to obtain and to top it off those purchasing are also selling (to much supply not enough demand) and not everyone can maintain a large collection to maintain a flooded marketplace. There is nothing that would indicate a long term climb in the market.

Have we seen the end of the $20K morph - not yet.

Quite frankly I would rather put my "investment money" into art - it holds its value better, ain't gunna die - you don't have to rely on it to reproduce for your "investment", you can own as many peices as you like, easier to resell, is easily insured and art doesn't take a dump in your livingroom.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I would have to agree with Tosha. I started investing for my "retirement fund" about 20 years ago. Not art per se but older "Harley-Davidson" motorcycles. All have appreciated in value over the years. There were only so many made per year, so there is limited availability. Other than leaking a little oil (they mark their spot-LOL) the maintenace is minimal & there fun to ride. Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles
CELEBRATING OUR 27TH YEAR IN THE RETAIL REPTILE BUSINESS

A while back you had a mystery ball, which you thought was a male but were not completely sure, up for sale for $600. Why so much if you are not looking to make money and don't think balls are investments?

Just trying to figure out where you are coming from...

Christy

LOL - would you consider $600 an investment, thats a day at Disneyland around here? Mostly - I priced him high because I didn't really want to sell him - when all is said and done - I decided to get rid of him for a whopping $150.00 - much less than what I paid for him. Really if it were about money for me I would have run my pastel through every breedable female I had this season like other people do - I didn't - hell I didn't even breed half the females I could have this year.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Hi Tosha,

I'd say $150 is a fair price for that snake. Although I'm not sure why you priced him high because you didn't want to sell him (not because you wanted the money), then sold him low, but that's entirely up to you. The appearance to the outsider would be that you could not sell him for the $600 you were asking for and so you drastically dropped the price. Still, that's entirely up to you.

I think it's completely fine if people don't look at balls as an investment. Although, I'd say most people (not you perhaps, but most people) who are keeping twenty, thirty, or 100 females, and selling off normal males, are absolutely are gearing up to try to make money.

There is nothing inherently honorable about keeping balls as pets, investments, or a little of both (my situation). There is no moral high ground here. Losing money on your collection is not more noble than making a little bit (or alot for that matter).

I did find your "get a real job" comment harsh - which I suppose is why I posted my question to you. First, the vast majority of us have other jobs already. In my case, I have a low paying "real job" which is my real passion - I work with teens at Youth for Christ. I am hoping income from these animals will provide a little wiggle room for us financially. So yes, in my case I absolutely intend to try to make money , but it's not a matter of greed.

Second, any job where someone is working hard, taking good care of their animals and their responsibilities, and dealing ethically IS a real job in my book. I don't care if that person is a farmer raising hogs, or a breeder raising ball pythons.

This is all just my opinion of course.

My best,

Christy

Christy -

Really I only had him listed for two days at $600 - mostly because I wasn't entirely sure that he was not a she and perhaps gravid by my albino (now that I have been informed that females can produce plugs and couldn't get a good probe on it) - until I had another breeder come over and pop him - took some doing but we got penes. Once we knew for sure that he was a he I priced him accordingly. Certainly wasn't trying to be honerable selling him at that price expecially since I paid a big breeder female price for him - just trying to be fair.

As for my comment that you found harsh - I did not tell anyone to "get a real job" - I said I have one - in other words if the ball market crashes - I don't care I make my living elseswhere. I was, in no way, being critical of someone that makes money off of their snakes. At least not in this thread. I apologize if it was misinterpreted.

Anyway - Best of luck with your breeding this season!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Tosha,

That puts things into perspective regarding your male. It would def be a bummer to buy a big "female" and have it turn out to be a male. Thanks for clarifying your "real job" comment as well.

I'm off to Indiana for a conference...

My best,

Christy

I think you took her comment on having another job wrong. I think what she said was in relation to some of the larger breeders (people who pay their mortgages and bills from selling snakes..balls) complaining about the price drops and market competition ruining thier incomes. I think it is funny because they are basically victims of their own success. To make hundreds of thousands a year, you have to sell a lot of snakes. You have just created hundreds of competitors. That kind of income was based on a phenomenon, not a true market. Don't get me wrong they still can make a decent living, just not the same level as the last few years. I find the funnest part about them being upset about the market is that, I would guess 95% of the people whom they sold intended to breed for $$$$$$$$$$. In fact that is how this entire market phenomenon exploded, it was marketed as easy way of making BIG$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ breeding snakes.

Unfortunetly true market forces have come in play, and the truth be told there are too many available for the price structure not to change. And no matter how many times people say they are going to breed less and let the litte guys burn them selves out, I just don't see that happening, the gates have been opened and their are too many out there. For example, I just attended a small monthly reptile swap and there were nice morphs on many table at much lower than KS prices (MUCH LOWER). I did not see one sell in the three hours I was there.

This thread started about Albino prices. I have a thought about that. The reason the prices have stayed as high as they have for so long is simple. It was the first marketed morph. It was sold for many years while only a few players were in the market for paying 7.5 grand for a breeder snake. It naturally stayed high because the number of breeders was low and customers were low. The situation today is much different. There are now literaly hundreds maybe thousands of hets in the hands of small breeder, Hundreds maybe thousands of individuals whom payed $1K or less for their hets pairs. You will now have hundreds and hundreds of babies produced by people with minimal investment, and yes when they go to sell the two or three babies they have and they don't sell for $2K in a couple months ( just look at the KS ads!). Why wouldn't they sell the baby for $1k and make their investment back in one sale and still have the parents and offspring. I really think that is what we will see this year or next, with all the hets starting to breed for the hobby breeders. I am not trying to be a sky is falling guy, just a realist. I love these guys and have hets of many of the simple recessive morphs.

Chris

I read many posts like this, basically small breeders can't make full value, there's not enough people out there, need to drop prices, it takes three years to make your investment back, etc. Well, it's about time I gave an uplifting story in which this isn't the case. I jumped in with both feet, given, and spent a great deal of money my first year (100k). That year I only got my male mojave and my male spider up to breeding size. At the end of the season I produced 18 spiders, about 8 mojaves, and my female mojave granite. I saw people dropping their price, and I didn't. I SOLD every animal for within $500 of the big breeder prices.........my first year.....and no-one knew me!! Sure I spent LOTS of time talking to customers and helping them through the year, but who doesn't like to talk snakes here? I won't comment on how much I made, but my first year I made all my money back and then some. My wife (married 2 months ago thanks to the snake businees) has a huge rock on her hand, I did very little trading to get some new morphs (and just BOUGHT a lavender albino male), we just bought a HUGE house (our first) with enough room to start construction of a brand new 20footX30foot factility. I am proud to say I never listened to these posts that could only destroy the confidence of the new people coming in that want to believe they can do the same. Sorry this seemed like bragging, but I had to get at least one story out there......I know for a fact there are others, but they're keeping quiet. Good luck with your year, and if any of you people don't like what other breeders are dropping their prices to, then you sure don't have to drop yours. Take care guys, I promise you that you'll be seeing more of me...................

Good to hear of your success. I am sure there are many success out there, along with the unsuccessful.

My question to you would be........Do you really think that prices are not destined to drop dramatically, if someone as yourself can raise 24 visual morphs in their FIRST YEAR. You did not say how much experience with breeding herps, but not all that critical as there is a ton of info out there about breeding BPs. In my modest opinion your story would be more of a testemant that prices could NOT slowly come down in the next few years with the now hundreds of individuals coming on line like yourself. Just IMO. Also, a 100K risk may be nothing to some and to others may mean selling @50% below market value. I believe a lot of individuals have leveraged their homes and retirements with loans to purchase their breeding stock. I am SURE that many can not afford to sit on dozens ( let alone hundreds ) of pieds to wait for market price. These guys will need to sell at what people will pay, so they don't lose their houses and such. The market is changing and it is these individuals who will set prices. The irony is that the same people who will claim to hate the low prices because of the market falling will probably pick up new stock because they can't resist the great deals. The effect will snowball. It is exactly what happened in many other phenomenon type markets.

Chris

Chris

Chris

Yes, I can see your point. One can make quite a few if they knew what they were doing. But the stories that most don't hear.......such as a male dying from temp problems or they were sick, more accidents in the snake room, people that leave in their rodents overnight and kill their snakes, etc. These people in my opinion remove all sorts of potential each year. Accidents happen, even to the big breeders. We are after all dealing with animals, and the biggest downside is that your investment can die!! The price will always drop, and to make the same amount of money, you just have to make more.....so you could easily hold back a second male, and use 2X the females. Or with mojave, make a super (or buy/trade for a super) and you can make the same with the same amount of females. I always knew that if I was to buy a co-dom or a dom, that the only way I would buy one is if I was ready. I sat down, played with some numbes, see how many I was hoping to make, make some estimations about the next years price, and saw if it was worth it. I jumped into the codoms and doms for this reason......you can make money fast!! You just have to know to not put all your hopes into a single female, or as little as 2 females. I knew then with that money I can buy/trade for more recessives. And as I wait to see those pay off, I will continue to make more codoms/doms. I am sure that they will drop fast.....but there is always new codoms to choose from!! Even if they drop down, I STILL have to say that $1000 is a LOT for a snake. I payed 15k for my spider, and even if the prices dropped to 1k, I would have still made my money back!! It's all about the supply and demand.......yes, there will always be a time where there is a lot of supply, but until these animals sell for $50 a piece, then there is still PLENTY of demand (ever go into a pet store and buy a baby normal BP for $1000? See my point? There is always people dying to get at them!!).
Now as for those who put too much into it. This is fine, until it comes time where money is NEEDED, instead of wanted. They want a quick sale to make some quick money.......and this hurts them!! They drop, make some money to take care of what they need, and I completely understand where they are coming from. But if you don't NEED to, why do it? I love having my snakes around!! My snakes just got bigger, and when I finally decided to let some go, people were all over me!! I heard ridiculous offers like half, and I told them they are worth more to me........and half of the time these people called me an hour later and agreed to pay in full. What I'm trying to say is, those that do this to support themselves have a serious disadvantage.......when you NEED something you will always have to settle for less, as opposed to those who WANT something and can wait. If you think about it, if these people sold everything at half price, and I charged full (or close to), isn't it like I had 2X as many animals as they did? (And half the feeding bill!!) I hope I answered all of your questions.....is there anything I left out?

Sorry it took me so long to see this. Well, here is how I see it. Right now the market is GREAT......there are plenty of people buying, and plenty of people willing to buy the big stuff. And yes, as more of each animal get out there, the price will drop on them. BUT all this means is that when they get to be $1000 (which is STILL a LOT of money), then they are more just old news. There are new morphs coming in each year, keeping the craze going, and causes the ability for anyone to make a new combination to increase exponentially each year (who can possible keep up?). These prices will remain high, until more get out there and so on.
NOW, there is one thing that is going to make a BIG difference in this business. The pastels!! The price has finally dropped so much, that they are soon to hit pet stores.......now I don't know how you found out about this business, but I did it by accident online. With pastels in petstores, it's like a GIANT advertisement for the BP industry, and soon they will want to breed pastels, make supers, and move on. Do you see my point? So, I would have to say that this business is going to hold strong........for how long? Who knows!! But I think it's going to be a LOT longer than people think, and even if all of these animals make it down to $1000 each, people can still get to make crazy combo morphs, talk about it at forums, and can still make a serious amount of money doing what they love.

"NOW, there is one thing that is going to make a BIG difference in this business. The pastels!! The price has finally dropped so much, that they are soon to hit pet stores.......now I don't know how you found out about this business, but I did it by accident online. With pastels in petstores, it's like a GIANT advertisement for the BP industry, and soon they will want to breed pastels, make supers, and move on. Do you see my point?"

Exactly!

...and it's probably what is going to save the Pied market...
(Yep,that's what they will ALL want next.)
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Female 100% het albino balls for $350? Not from any well known breeder. Proably a normal being sold by a scammer.
You have to be very careful where you buy hets from. There are a ton of scammers who post every day, looking to take the money away from people not wanting to pay the asking "market" price.
Always true: If it sounds to good to be true... it proably is...." Buyer beware!!
The main point to all of this, is some people want to see the prices of ball python morphs drop to a level they can easily purchase them. And the same people cry a river when they can't sell the morphs they bought for big bucks... It happens everytime.
If you want albinos, try your hardest to find a real breeder,and work with them. Avoid the scammers at all cost. You'll only lose your money and all your time.

Most of the het prices are based on male hets being basically priced as normals. The value in hets is the female, because most people end up buying homozygous males, to breed to multitudes of females. I doubt anyone is getting over $600 for het Albino females, no matter what they say. And, I see het
Albino PAIRS for less than $600 now. Personally, I would rather have Ghosts than Albinos, the combos are much nicer, hence the price of Ghost vs. Albinos. I think the Albino Pied might have saved the Albinos from dropping even more than they have.

You mean Lavender albino pied right?

The Albino Pied is from the Lavender Albino line, but I think the regular Albino Pied will be as stunning, since the Lavender in the Lavender Albino does not come out right away. So, the only pics of the Albino Pied I have seen were baby pics, and I think the normal Albino Pied will be as stunning.

No regular albino pieds have ever been produced and some say they never will...

I don't really have any opinion on this, but I think that was what the previous poster was getting at...
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

The Lavender Albino Pied, in my opinion, got people thinking about what could be made with the Albino, normal or Lavender. Up until that point, the Albino crosses, starting with the Spider, have been fairly dissapointing. I think the Lavender Albino Pied got people thinking about Albino crosses again, and what a normal Albino Pied might look like. Even if one never gets produced, for whatever reason, I think it was a nice carrot to dangle in front of those who cannot afford the Lavender, and were sitting on the fence deciding if they should buy an Albino or not.

I saw one posted here a while back what a knockout.Just to add to the point of albino combos.
Thanks mike

Hey all,

Why wouldn't a (regular) albino/pied cross be possible? I hadn't heard reasoning about it not being possible.

Thanks,

W. Smith

this is why people cannot sell balls at real prices......if they sell a little less you all start yelling it can't be real it must be a scam.......

I set at shows with ultramel corns....you can actually SEE this morph.het lavender yet...worth at least $150.....I set them on table for $50..I sold none........I left half die and I still got half for me........sold 0

as for het for amel.....yea......they are cheaper from the small guys and alot are real........

buy from someone you at least know where they live..then if they aren't real you can see them again at shows and get money back.........you see the same people over and over again at shows....both sides of the tables........

.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

like this saturday .......round and round they go.........
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are they really?.....wow

The albino has been around for quite a long time - the Grandfather of morphs. It has held its value extremely well and still remains a solid investment and more importantly, a beautiful reptile. You will always find the rare low price. If 10 males are selling at 2K and you find one listed at 1K, this does not mean the price is plummeting or the average for an albino is 1,500.

Het females for $350? Common sense would tell me to run as fast as I could from this. Does not seem right. Reptiles do not have a set price, more a price range. While it is possible to find het females at $350, it would seem rare and unsafe to purchase those from anyone other than a trusted source.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I did see the ad for the het albino pairs for $599.
It was from a breeder with a big name but, it was a sale price.
i dont believe that this big name breeder would leave his 06 pairs at this price.
Just my 2 cents.

Jon

Basically what they are doing is throwing the useless male in for free.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

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males are $100 if you can get it......

while the people that know you buy one offline for $200 plus shipping.......

then ask you questions about it......

?......huh

yea.....males free with female...beats selling them to petshop for $30 like all the possible het males.....
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are they really?.....wow

jmartin, right on. when you've been around this for a few years, you see how many solid looking people come and go. and the trail of broken dreams their so called hets leave behind. let the buyer beware has never been more true than when buying bargain hets. there are plenty of great people selling bp's, but also plenty of two bit trash. kd