Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A "runt" hypomelanistic floridana that's finally doing well

"Super" Peanut Butter & Double Het Axanthic (lemke/BHB)


small group after feeding time
-----
Bart Borchert
Sandhill Reptiles
Horridus@aol.com

single gene peanutbutters and if so what are you seeing that makes you sure? This is not asked to question but rather to inform us of what you and Rainer are seeing. The difference between the "super" and a normal is obvious but what about the single gene trait? How do you differentiate between the hypo, single-gene peanutbutter, and normal?
-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.3 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Well, like I said in the email, it's just a theory right now that's backed up by most of the results, that's why it was a bit premature to post. But it should be obvious for example, in the box shots, there's a super, a PB, a hypo, an axanthic, a Jelly, a Lavender Amelanistic and a normal (double het axanthic) and your photos showed it even better (in my opinion) what were originally sold as hets are not normal, a few months ago when Rainer and others were having a discussion about someone selling Peanut Butters, I think it was Tom that mentioned something to the effect of "you can tell a het peanut butter by appearance" this is not possible with a recessive trait. That combined with breeding results and the appearance of the "hets" led me to come to this conclusion. Along the same lines as "yellowbelly" Ball pythons, the Peanut Butter "hets" which should actually be referred to as Peanut Butters are distinctive in appearance, some are close to being normal, some are very obvious but they are all very much "not normal" there's alot to be discovered with this trait! What is great for the people that purchased these animals is...what were orignially thought to be "hets" should be able to produce more animals like themselves when bred to a completely normal florida (50% PB /50% normals, try that with a recessive het LOL)....and since most were being produced with super to PB breeding very few normals were produced and it is thought none were sold by themselves...meaning if you got some, like yourself...you got a super and some PBs not a PB and some hets. hope this helps clear it up somewhat. This year's breedings will prove or disprove if what I believe to be true is or isn't....but past results are certainly promising.

Bart "or Brad I guess"
Horridus@aol.com
-----
Bart Borchert
Sandhill Reptiles
Horridus@aol.com

I just like to get all of the info out into the open, things go much smoother that way.
-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.3 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.3 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

I have some questions because Im not sure what your saying. I recall and Rainer posted thios pic last week of very black and normal looking Brooksi being sold as and referred to as het PB Brooksi. I also rememeber the first year they were offered that some of the animals Rainer thought were hets looked very odd and I think they were all females(correct me iof Im wrong on that) I think that lead Rainer into saying they are sexually dimorphic by color then he said they are co dominant. I guess so many things have been said I dont know what they are lol. I dont think anyone is intentionally misleading anyone here but cripes shouldnt someone S.T.F.U until they know whats going on ? All this 007 2 hets are moot since all the 2 hets Ive seen pictured look normal so they have ZERO PB in them. Hopefully nobody spent a ton of money on those snakes if in fact the gene is co-dominant. Also is the original male a super ? If so then his parents are PB's? They are awesome snakes and are one of the more exciting morphs to pop out of Brooksi especially if it can be combined with other morphs. What the hell is a Jelly Brooksi?

>>Well, like I said in the email, it's just a theory right now that's backed up by most of the results, that's why it was a bit premature to post. But it should be obvious for example, in the box shots, there's a super, a PB, a hypo, an axanthic, a Jelly, a Lavender Amelanistic and a normal (double het axanthic) and your photos showed it even better (in my opinion) what were originally sold as hets are not normal, a few months ago when Rainer and others were having a discussion about someone selling Peanut Butters, I think it was Tom that mentioned something to the effect of "you can tell a het peanut butter by appearance" this is not possible with a recessive trait. That combined with breeding results and the appearance of the "hets" led me to come to this conclusion. Along the same lines as "yellowbelly" Ball pythons, the Peanut Butter "hets" which should actually be referred to as Peanut Butters are distinctive in appearance, some are close to being normal, some are very obvious but they are all very much "not normal" there's alot to be discovered with this trait! What is great for the people that purchased these animals is...what were orignially thought to be "hets" should be able to produce more animals like themselves when bred to a completely normal florida (50% PB /50% normals, try that with a recessive het LOL)....and since most were being produced with super to PB breeding very few normals were produced and it is thought none were sold by themselves...meaning if you got some, like yourself...you got a super and some PBs not a PB and some hets. hope this helps clear it up somewhat. This year's breedings will prove or disprove if what I believe to be true is or isn't....but past results are certainly promising.
>>
>>Bart "or Brad I guess"
>>Horridus@aol.com
>>-----
>>Bart Borchert
>>Sandhill Reptiles
>>Horridus@aol.com
-----

This is the pic that refers to the snakes as a PB a Super PB and a het PB. Now that black Brooksi doesnt look like a PB to me but about a dark as brooks as can be.

-----

And....if you look below that post you will see that this information was corrected.....wow, you can just feel the animosity....it was a mistake, ever made one? He was getting the information from me and in the excitement mislabled a photo...

Horridus

Posted by: Horridus at Thu Feb 16 14:17:44 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The black ones are normals....not het for anything...

Horridus@aol.com

Bart

No I dont care for Rainer one bit. To be honest with you my feelings towards him have nothing to do with my questions on the PB's. What makes you think they are co-dom ? I know he bred a PB to a Lav and got some that he called Jellies but seriously Bart who the hell knows whats het for what anymore. I mean if you purchased 2 seemingly nornal Brooksi at a show and bred them together and a Hypo popped out would you think you had a new strain ? Hell no! the mutations have been in and out of just about all the stock these days. How many people who own Brooksi can trace their stock back to WC snakes ? In other words if thats why you think they may be co-dom because of that then thats pretty iffy. His original PB male could easily be het for Lav and he didnt know it. Therein lies the crappy part about Brooksi these days they are like a box of chocolates you never know what your gonna get. Hell Doug Beard told me personally he let as many as 60 het for various mutation Brooksi go down along the canals. The guy actually lives in Homestead Florida so thats a pretty scary thing to think about. I really do like the PB and Im not trying to bust anyones stones are say they arent real. I do think they are legit and beautiful but I get irritated that Rainer was somewhat irresponsible announcing all this stuff on speculation as if it was proven out. In fatc the only Fact is that he sold the black and yellow normal looking babies from the PB's as hets for the last few years and if they are co-dom then he owes some people refunds. The 007 project would also be moot as the "2hets" Ive seen posted here look like normal Brooksi. If they dont look like PB's then they arent carrying the PB mutation so they are just het for whatever Rainers secret other mutation is....To me thats a bummer and I feel bad for anyone who may have invested time and or money into that project. I think at this point those people are hoping its not a Co-dom mutation.

Keith

-----

Well Keith,

First the Jelly brooks are only one example of what's going on here, there are MANY other breedings that have shown that three distinct appearances are produced. If you think that I'm wrong that's fine...you don't know all the facts...you haven't seen the animals, honestly you don't have any idea what's going on here or what I'm basing my thoughts on. I sent you a personal email that explained some of what's happened and offered my private phone number if you wanted to know more. You chose to answer it here and cast more dispersion. Were not talking about one breeding here, we are talking about 3 years of breeding results. Like I said before, it is a theory at this time with lots of evidence to back up my conclusions....I would be happy to share the information thats available with you via email or phone....but it seems you would rather publicly throw stones, the information WAS prematurely posted, but since the information is out there now I have done my best to disclose ALL the information to the people who bought into the project and everyone else for that matter. I don't know if anyone's unhappy about what they purchased, that's between them and Rainer. I purchased what was supposed to be a PB and two hets...let me tell you I'm pretty happy with them especially since what appears to be going on increases my ability to produce the mutation tenfold as the "hets" themselves can be bred normals and (if everything is as I believe) produce more animals with their appearance. Is the dark one in this photo a normal brooks king Keith?? It was what was being sold as a het PB.

When the mutation is proven or disproven for that matter as co-dominant I will post all the information I can get about it. As I have tried to do here already.

>>>I mean if you purchased 2 seemingly nornal Brooksi at a show and bred them together and a Hypo popped out would you think you had a new strain ? Hell no!

No I wouldn't Keith, there is lots of information backing up the co-dominant theory, the breeding that produced the jellys for example…a super PB to a T- Amelanistic no normals were produced, no normal amelanistics were produced, the one I have is the most “lavender amel” looking one of the bunch but this is an example of what most of the offspring looked like. Are you telling me this is a normal lavender amel? Why don’t you find out the whole story instead of accusing me of jumping the gun??

Here's the "normal" one that was produced....

>>>>Therein lies the crappy part about Brooksi these days they are like a box of chocolates you never know what your gonna get. Hell Doug Beard told me personally he let as many as 60 het for various mutation Brooksi go down along the canals. The guy actually lives in Homestead Florida so thats a pretty scary thing to think about.

Why does that frighten you....I agree it's frightening that someone's releasing CH offspring into the wild with no regard for the impact that pathogens acquired in captivity could have on the wild snakes...but ALL the mutations currently in captivity came from WILD snakes originally...their genetic makeup is irrelevant. There are plenty of normal floridana in the wild regardless of what may have been released. Nature takes care of mutations that are ill-suited for survival. Just because you don't care for mutations does not mean that it's a "crappy" thing to get surprises when you breed animals together, some people actually think these snakes are attractive....imagine that! And for that matter, just because you bred two supposedly normal brooks together and got a hypo doesn't necessarily mean that you captive breeding was to blame, that's how the original hypos appeared to begin with! You could have had some new blood for all you knew, but you assumed they were hypos of known lines without breeding to prove it out.

Bart Borchert
Horridus@aol.com

Ok Bart. As far me not calling you why would I this discussion is best had on a forum for all to see. If you disagree then give me a ring at 608.222.7607 I would love to discuss snakes of all kinds. I hope you dont percieve that I have personally attacked you Bart its justa discussion.

Keith
-----

Stunning snake!!! Always loved that one.
Good points made about the mixed bag of genes that have befallen the Brooksi.

Excellent group of KIngs, they should grow up overnight too.
Tom Stevens

Awesome Group of babies! What is the silver one considered? That is a very nice one. Derek

I love the silver one. I'll have to keep an eye out for one of those. I assume you're keeping that one, but I'd be interested in it's offspring!

Yes they are all keepers, the silver one is a very nice "New England" strain axanthic...it's opaque in the photo so it looks even more silver that it is.

Thank you for the compliments!
Horridus@aol.com