Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In a thread a week or two ago Tim Spuckler reported accounts of breeders in his area breeding hondurans without brumating them. I suggested we get more detailed accounts, and Tim referred me to one such breeder, Doug Matuszak of Boa Basement.

I wrote Doug about his experiences. Here's his reply:

"the temps my hondos are at range between 72 - 76 degrees depending on how long the furnace is on to heat the house in the dead of winter. The snakes are fed once to twice a week on large to jumbo mice. most eat while a few of the older animals(6 years ) might refuse once in a while. The reason I stopped the more drastic cooling practice was due to the fact that these animals come from a neotropical environment and I felt these more drastic cooling practices caused undue stress upon the animals. The 05 season went great doing this while previous years at the cooler temps produced less eggs and fewer females laid eggs period. These lower temps were in the low 60s into the high 50s which was what I was taught originally to get these animals to go. I now leave all my colubrids, kings and corns and the hondos in the warmer temps and they all seem to be doing better for the change.
What this also does is stop the mad dash to fatten ones females up before starving them for several months while we humans relax. I can pretty much guarantee that these animals eat year around in the wild.
Regular feeding schedule to get them to lay twice a year is 3 - 4 times a week starting around mid March into April."

So it sounds like doug is one person who's bred successfully, at least for this first year (05) without dramatic brumation. Note that his snakes ARE exposed to lower (but only slightly so) temperatures in the winter, and do eat LESS by about half, compared to the regular feeding schedule. Nevertheless, they're kept "up" and feeding on that reduced sched throughout the winter. I've asked Doug to report here how this season goes, and i urge others to report their results if they use non-conventional brumation. The "traditional" method need not always be the right one.

peace
terry

n/p

a few more questions come to mind....

- during the winter temps of 72-76, I assume they still have their normal warm spot in the 80s for digesting their meals?

- after the 3-4 times/week feeding in March & April, does he return to the 1-2 times/week feedings for the rest of the ear?

- are they exposed to different light cycles during the winter (ie. are they in a room with windows to "see" the seasonal change)?
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

>>a few more questions come to mind....

Paul, I contacted Doug. Here are his answers to your questions...
>>
>>- during the winter temps of 72-76, I assume they still have their normal warm spot in the 80s for digesting their meals?

DOUG ANSWERS: No extra hot spot at all , I have never given a hot spot to any of my colubrids, kingsnakes, corn snakes and milk snakes and have never had a problem.
>>
>>- after the 3-4 times/week feeding in March & April, does he return to the 1-2 times/week feedings for the rest of the year?

>>DOUG ANSWERS: I just back them to the once to twice a week feeding during the winter months. Once it warms up in the spring is when their appetites really kick in and it is very important to keep the females happy to produce big viable eggs. I for the most part get all my females to double clutch and this takes a lot of food during the egg producing season.

>>- are they exposed to different light cycles during the winter (ie. are they in a room with windows to "see" the seasonal change)?

DOUG ANSWERS: No artificial lighting schedule at all. Window is covered over in the winter to help keep the temps from getting to cool so they are not exposed to any light cycling and for the light they get from the overhead lighting, well that changes from day to day depending on when I turn them on and off. All colubrids are supplied with a hide box so they mainly stay in those for the most part. I have never used a light cycle for any of the over 20 species of boas, pythons and colubrids that I have successfully produced over the last 17 years.

>>-----
>>Paul Weaver
>>Carolina Herps

Been doing the same thing for over 10 years simply because my apt. is too small to "give up an area" for cooling. My apt. may get in the 50's occasionally, but rarely goes below 60. I offer food about 2-3 times a month during the cold weather season. I do however maintain a strict photo-period. When the sun sets outside, all my lights go out by 6 p.m. , and so on, save for one desk lamp in main room area. I'm so used to this it has become normal routine.
The kitchen lights are out also by 6 p.m. Start putting male and females together in April. If female not receptive, I'll try again in a few days. My campbells are usually first to go, while the hondos take a while. They seem more inclined in May, as are my sinaloans. After copulation observed several times, females get fed more often.
Only my ball pythons and spotted have bottom heat, controlled by an on-off thermostat and are fed weekly.

This works well for me, so why change things.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the feedback. I'd definitely consider this a brumation period, with temps sometimes to 60, presumably IN the 60s most of the winter, and feedings only 2-3 times per month. Not clear about your light period...i suspect your apt has windows so in summer there's longer periodicity, and if i understand you correctly you're saying in the winter the sun sets before (or by) 6 and you turn your lights off then, so that may--if i'm interpreting correctly--also mean less light in winter than summer?

I found it interesting that you begin feeding especially heavy only AFTER a couple copulations. I've always thought it was the aggressive feeding BEFORE cop began that either a) triggers ovulation or b) is a result of it. In either case, i start my aggressive feeding a week or two out of brumation. It's interesting that yours start breeding without that stimulus. As i said earlier, always something new to learn!

Terry

>>Been doing the same thing for over 10 years simply because my apt. is too small to "give up an area" for cooling. My apt. may get in the 50's occasionally, but rarely goes below 60. I offer food about 2-3 times a month during the cold weather season. I do however maintain a strict photo-period. When the sun sets outside, all my lights go out by 6 p.m. , and so on, save for one desk lamp in main room area. I'm so used to this it has become normal routine.
>>The kitchen lights are out also by 6 p.m. Start putting male and females together in April. If female not receptive, I'll try again in a few days. My campbells are usually first to go, while the hondos take a while. They seem more inclined in May, as are my sinaloans. After copulation observed several times, females get fed more often.
>>Only my ball pythons and spotted have bottom heat, controlled by an on-off thermostat and are fed weekly.
>>
>>This works well for me, so why change things.
>>
>>Mike

Ray:

When it gets dark outside, my blinds (wood)are closed, and all lights go out about 20 minutes later. The main living room has a pair of 48 inch verilux flourescents. Only my big 3' and 4' cages have exterior lights (also flouros). All the lights in my apt. stay on all day, (shades open also) till sundown, year round. All my lights are flourescents, incl. some screw in types, and are 100% verilux. The only light that stays on nights, is the desk lamp (flouro), and the tv, when used. The remainder of my guys are in 30 qt.rubbermaids painted white on the outside, with artists gesso, to diffuse any light coming in.
I haven't had any "upchucks" in over 10 years, so feeding in cool weather (60's) doesn't seem to affect them. All adult mice are medium size. I don't want to see a big bulge when fed. Better to feed them again in 4-5 days if necessary. If any house keeping is necessary at night, I use a flashlight.
Of course if I had a big house, I wouldn't be in the dark so much.

Mike

Terry,

Thanks for following up on that! I meant to do so. To answer Paul's questions, the snakes are in unheated sweater boxes (no heat tape). The basement has windows, so there's a light cycle. Yes, Doug accelerates his snakes' feeding schedule when breeding season starts.

Since Doug is primarily a boa breeder, I can see how he extrapolated his temperature cycling techniques to Hondurans, which in some areas overlap the range of boas. In addition, Dougs method allows for snakes to have some "extra growing time" if they're borderline size for breeding.

Tim

Third Eye

Hey Tim,
If they aren't on heat tape during the winter, doesn't he have problems with regurges if the temps are only in the low 70s?

Paul
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Paul,

Apparently not. There are some people who say Black Milks can be kept at "room temperature" with no supplemental heat. Perhaps Hondurans are the same way. I still advocate having a thermal gradient, but not all snake keepers provide one.

Tim

Hey Paul,

I don't use any heat tape or any heating apparatus at all during winter. I shut everything out (light and heat), leave the hondo in its original terrarium and cover the whole glass area and top with black plastic paper ( the large 45lb trash bags works perfectly), making sure that there's airflow going in and out. And then I change the water once a week very quickly so as not to disturb the hondo. My brumation cycle starts Dec. 1 and ends March 1st. I make sure that the last meal before brumation is at least 3 weeks, so the belly is empty during brumation...that is pobably why I never had any problems with regurgitaion or vomiting. This has worked for me for all my hondos (male or female) and for more than 5 seasons of breeding hondos.

Hope this contributes something to this discussion and great input from all of you.
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RAY

Hi Ray,
The reason I asked the question about regurges was because Doug is actually feeding his animals throughout the winter months without them being on heat tape.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Oh, that makes sense since he has been feeding them during winter. Thanks Paul.

Ray
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RAY

4 years ago I lived in Puerto Rico, I was there for 7 years and I had Corns, Hondos, Pueblans and Gray Banded, also other things. The first year I used an old Frige and tried to keep the temp at 52-55f. The snakes did okay, had many eggs. Then I move to another house in Puerto Rico and the temps from Nov till Feb during the night would get to about 68-74F. I did not use the old frige anymore Ijust let mother nature to her thing. I did not do anything about the light cycle since there where windows in the room where I kept the snakes. I always had sucess with the breeding of all the snakes.

Now I am living in Colorado near Denver and this will be my 2nd year breeding my hondos. Last year I did the Brumation thing in my basement crawl space where the temp was 55-50F. I had 5 females last year and all of them mated and I only had one clutch hatch and the male I used was one that I did not brumate at all. The room I use to keep my snakes gets sun shine all day long and I do not heat it at all. This year I have 15 females to try it again and see what happens. They were all brumated and this year them temps were somewhat lower since it was colder this year. I just took them out this past Sunday and all of them are eating but one that is in blue. I will post a follow-up to see what happens. But I think that next year I will not brumate them to see what happens.

I use belly heat and use the Helix units to maintain the temps. I also have a pair of Irian's that all I did was shut the heat off for 30 days and they mated and the females is very fat and stays coiled up over the heated area. I did the same with a pair of Ball Pythons and they mated this week for me and I am keeping my fingers crossed because they are het albinos.

Will keep you guys posted. Just wanted to share. One more thing I have a very good friend in Puerto Rico that just keeps them in a room and he does not use any type of heat at all and he keeps Chondros, Boas, Pythons, Milks and Corns and gets many babies.

Sorry for the long post.
Tom
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Thomas Sierra
1.1 Irian Jaya
1.1 Ball Pythons Het For Albino
Alb Honduran 3.3
Hypo Honduran 2.2
Anery Hondo 3.7
Tangerine Alb Hondo 1.0
DH Snow Hondo 2.0
Het Tang Alb Hondo 3.3
Het Pin Stripe Hypo 0.1
Triple Het Hondos 1.1

Hi tom, good to hear from you. Ques: Last year you put an UN-brumated male X 5 females and only one produced eggs that hatched. Did you brumate the males you're going to use this year x 15 females?
terry

>>4 years ago I lived in Puerto Rico, I was there for 7 years and I had Corns, Hondos, Pueblans and Gray Banded, also other things. The first year I used an old Frige and tried to keep the temp at 52-55f. The snakes did okay, had many eggs. Then I move to another house in Puerto Rico and the temps from Nov till Feb during the night would get to about 68-74F. I did not use the old frige anymore Ijust let mother nature to her thing. I did not do anything about the light cycle since there where windows in the room where I kept the snakes. I always had sucess with the breeding of all the snakes.
>>
>>Now I am living in Colorado near Denver and this will be my 2nd year breeding my hondos. Last year I did the Brumation thing in my basement crawl space where the temp was 55-50F. I had 5 females last year and all of them mated and I only had one clutch hatch and the male I used was one that I did not brumate at all. The room I use to keep my snakes gets sun shine all day long and I do not heat it at all. This year I have 15 females to try it again and see what happens. They were all brumated and this year them temps were somewhat lower since it was colder this year. I just took them out this past Sunday and all of them are eating but one that is in blue. I will post a follow-up to see what happens. But I think that next year I will not brumate them to see what happens.
>>
>>I use belly heat and use the Helix units to maintain the temps. I also have a pair of Irian's that all I did was shut the heat off for 30 days and they mated and the females is very fat and stays coiled up over the heated area. I did the same with a pair of Ball Pythons and they mated this week for me and I am keeping my fingers crossed because they are het albinos.
>>
>>Will keep you guys posted. Just wanted to share. One more thing I have a very good friend in Puerto Rico that just keeps them in a room and he does not use any type of heat at all and he keeps Chondros, Boas, Pythons, Milks and Corns and gets many babies.
>>
>>Sorry for the long post.
>>Tom
>>-----
>>Thomas Sierra
>>1.1 Irian Jaya
>>1.1 Ball Pythons Het For Albino
>>Alb Honduran 3.3
>>Hypo Honduran 2.2
>>Anery Hondo 3.7
>>Tangerine Alb Hondo 1.0
>>DH Snow Hondo 2.0
>>Het Tang Alb Hondo 3.3
>>Het Pin Stripe Hypo 0.1
>>Triple Het Hondos 1.1

Hi tom, good to hear from you. Ques: Last year you put an UN-brumated male X 5 females and only one produced eggs that hatched. Did you brumate the males you're going to use this year x 15 females?
terry

Hi Terry,
How you doing are you still in Florida or have you moved??

No I used him only with one female and he was one of the double het for snow I got from you. Yes I brumated the males also. I have 3 females I did not brumated that I am going to try and breed to see what happens.

Tom
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Thomas Sierra
1.1 Irian Jaya
1.1 Ball Pythons Het For Albino
Alb Honduran 3.3
Hypo Honduran 2.2
Anery Hondo 3.7
Tangerine Alb Hondo 1.0
DH Snow Hondo 2.0
Het Tang Alb Hondo 3.3
Het Pin Stripe Hypo 0.1
Triple Het Hondos 1.1

i have been breeding corns for about 6 years now only one pair as a hobby and for the knowledge it gives you. well i have never brumated any of my snakes (at least in a conventional way) until this year. i decided to try it and see if it causes any changes in clutch, size of young or the neonates eagerness to eat. since i only have one pair it is easier for me to notice the small changes. but for my past years i have always left heat pads on all year round no temp controller, my old house used to get really cold upstairs so i would move tham down stairs were the temp was normally 70-72 f, my new house we keep the house at 62 during the day and 70 from 6-10 pm and 8-10am i always continue to feed all winter,never had a regurge from my corns but did from another this year only(do to size of meal) when my female sheds i introduce the male for a week at a time until i know she is pregnant. she is a little over 4ft and always lays 23-25 eggs never less never a bad egg all hatch accept 2 years i had twins were one died full grown. her eggs are smaller and the neonates are of course smaller also. about 7-9 inches or so. i incubate in a hova bator with vermiculit 84-87 f 80-90 % humidity
hope this helps the cause
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.2 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

a fella i know saw this thread and wrote me as follows:

" Last year I had 4 females and 1 male (hondos) lay good first clutches without hibernation. My friend never hibernates his Hondurans and they breed within the week last four years which also happens to coincide with mine( I live 30 miles North of him). He also has better fertility than I. When I lived in Tampa, I did not hibernate. They did have a photoperiod change but temp and food remained constant. That was kings, greybands, pueblans, hondurans, hogs, annullata, and more. I personally feel it is not nessessary for most but I generally do it for a break and cost savings."

thought that was worth passing on.
terry

Interesting, "all four in the same week" that is a close breeding schedule. "Brumate to save founds" that is an added plus also to focus on fattening up your neonate holdbacks.