Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it possible when mixing two morphs for one gene to eliminate the other. For example ....

If you bred a pastel to an albino

You would assume that you would get normal het albinos and pastel het albinos. But what if the pastel gene somehow wiped out the albino gene. Or could it be possible that because of the pastel gene, some of the offspring wouldn't be het albino.

This is all just threoretical - I'm sure it probably has to do with what allele the morph genes are on and the phase of the moon at conception.

But the thought ran through my mine earlier while thinking about mixing morphs.

Thanks,
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

The genetics in your example do not negate each other, but in genetics certian genetic allignments happen just to negate other's albinism is exactly that... Your negating melanin.... Of course this is a very simple explanation.....

So far we have seem that two gene can react and cause pattern and color to dissappear in Ball pythons..Phantom x Lesser Lucy's....Thats the biggest example I can put out there but it's not really what your asking or is it????

Not necessarily negating the color or phenotype per se ... but the gene all together. Like if you mixed any two morphs one gene may litterly erase the other. Like you expect a pied to pass the pied gene down to all it's offspring - but what if when mixed with a cinny, the cinny gene somehow prevents that from happening? Does that make sense?
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Unless the genes are on the same allele, they cannot negate each other. They may overshadow one or the other, but the genes stay there...
-----
-Ohh, what a Lady-

Balls for Life, Baby!

www.heathersherps.com

I think it's called epistatic when one gene covers the expression of another. For example, I suppose a leucistic could still be a genetic stripe (as long as both mutations don't turn out to be the same gene) but I would expect the leucistic condition to hide the striped condition - if so, leucistic would be epistatic over stripe. I think genetic pastel albinos have been produced and if breeding proved them to be both homozygous albino and at least heterozygous pastel then that would prove that the two mutations where of two different genes. However, if you could tell by looking that it wasn't just albino (that it was also pastel) then I guess you couldn't say that pastel was fully hypostatic (the opposite of epistatic) to albino.

This would be different than what I suspect is happening with lesser and phantom from a few posts back. More breeding will need to be done to be sure but it looks like phantom and lesser may well be different mutations of the same gene - alleles. This is an important concept because a snake should only have two copies of the same gene (except perhaps females with genes on the gender chromosomes). In general one copy comes from each parent. If phantom and lesser are different mutations of the same gene then the karma has no normal copies of this gene and can only produce phantoms and lessers when bred to a normal (about 50/50 chance of each). A karma could also not give two copies of the same gene to the same offspring so karma X normal could also not produce karma. If lesser and phantom are mutations of different genes then both normals and karmas would be possible from breeding karma to a normal.

I once was told the proper term for having two different mutant versions of the same gene but I can't seem to remember or find it again. Does anyone here know the term for say a double het striped and motley corn snake? I understand that it's been proven that both of those mutations are the same gene and that motley is dominant over stripe so the offspring from homozygous stripe corn X homozygous motley corn look motley and that "double het" really isn't the right word for them but if you breed two of them together they produce 1/4 stripes and the rest look motley but only 1/4 of the clutch is really homozygous motley.

The different alleles/genes for things such as melanin are in different places in the genetic strand...you either have the normal one at that location or the recessive. So the hypo location is different than where the albino one is, the two don't actually mix, rather when both presnt in the homo state you see both. The simple recessives are such and as far as I know cannot wipe one another out.
-----
Mike and David at 3-D Pythons
www.3dpythons.com

Tosha,

With all the advice you shell out on this forum you would think that you knew everything there was to know about Genetics and care of Ball Pythons.

LOL - for some of us morphs and genetics are a somewhat new adventure in an old hobby.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Well, if there were a number of different mutations that were alleles of the same gene only a maximum of two of them could be present. I guess thats one possible way that a mutation could be eliminated. Genes are paired so you could only have two mutations at a time that were alleles of a specific locus. Human blood type for instance. There are basically 4 different blood types. A, B, AB, and O. A and B are codominant to each other and O is recessive to both. The possible combinations are.

AA - Blood type A
AO - Blood type A
BB - Blood type B
BO - Blood type B
AB - Blood type AB
OO - Blood type O

There is only space for two types on the gene which is why you would never see a blood type of ABO. I guess in this way you could 'eliminate' a mutation. Does that make sense? I'm sorry if I explained it poorly, I'm certainly not an expert.

>>Is it possible when mixing two morphs for one gene to eliminate the other. For example ....
>>
>>If you bred a pastel to an albino
>>
>>You would assume that you would get normal het albinos and pastel het albinos. But what if the pastel gene somehow wiped out the albino gene. Or could it be possible that because of the pastel gene, some of the offspring wouldn't be het albino.
>>
>>This is all just threoretical - I'm sure it probably has to do with what allele the morph genes are on and the phase of the moon at conception.
>>
>>But the thought ran through my mine earlier while thinking about mixing morphs.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>
>>"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
>>
>>
>>
>>11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
>>0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

they be as you said....het amel or pastel het amel

proven with the pastel amels ........
-----
................................................
.............................................
........................................
are they really?.....wow

Since a Pastel Albino has already been produced I doubt that combination would be in question. I think that the only time you would have to worry about that is if you are dealing with genes that are on the same loci. Wich so far the only ones that might be allels on the same loci are the phantom, mojave, butter, lesser etc. All produce different phenotypes in both homozygous and het form but lesser mojave, lesser phantom, etc. seem to produce a similar form therefore until more breeding is done to determine if they are on the same loci then we don't know. If someone breeds a lesser mojave lucy and gets a lucy then obviously they are not on the same loci.
-----
Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com