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As most of you know sometimes we have kingsnake hatchlings that refuse to eat. Most of the time they get over this problem in a month or so, other times it takes significantly longer. After trying the old standby of cooling a non-feeding hatchling for 2-4 weeks they still won't eat. They're thin and must eat or they will die.

That's where force feeding comes into play. I choose rat tails because they are much more substantial than a mouse tail but smaller hatchlings will need smaller tails.

I start by going to the freezer to to pick a meal

The tail is cut from the frozen rat on an angle to facilitate feeding.

I thaw the tail in warm water for a few minutes.

The now thawed tail.

The non-feeder "Bad Snake" he says in a stern tone of voice.
Notice the sexing probe to the right of the box.

Pick up the snake and firmly secure the rear of the head between your thumb and index finger.

Pick up the probe and gently slide the ball tip into one corner and slide through until the jaws are slightly separated. Don't damage the teeth the probe just needs to slid through. Use the hand holding the snake to also hold the probe. Now with your free hand slide the cut end of the tail into the snakes mouth. Once the jaws are around the tail extract the probe and slowly push the tail down the snakes throat.

If you stop at this point some snakes will work their jaws along and will swallow the meal. If they do great. Others like this one will regurge unless its shoved further along.

Keep pushing GENTLY until at this point even the most difficult cases will usually finish the job.

At least thats how I do it. I'll force feed twice a week and place the snake in a deli cup with a f/t pinkie overnight 3 nights a week until they eat.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

Very well done. That is exactly what I do, although I use mouse tails. That is a great technique for those very few that don't pick up on their own. It works nearly every time for me. Thanks.

Will

Although, if the tail is cut at a good angle, it usually slips right into the mouth (as Mike also stated), negating the probe step. However, for those stubborn S.O.Bs, the probe trick works well. Thanks again.

Will

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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

Ugh, I hate force feeding. I had a 04 GA Eastern King last year that was reluctant to say the least. Didn't want to force feed her, so I just gave her snakes. Caught crypto lol.

Force feeding never seems to work out for me. I had a clutch of corn snakes that weren't feeding, never planned to feed. Forced each one a mouse tail every 3 days. Still no interest in pinkies after 2 months lol. That's when I know, they want to be snake food.

Your force feeding technique was similar to mine, except I never use a object to open the mouth of the snake, I put the mouse tail on the side of the mouth and push gently until it's inside. Works very easily.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Or you call actually address the issue and stop being so bullheaded and change your husbandry methods to something that fits the needs of those baby snakes. Then there will be no need to force feed.

Force feeding is usually a tool for animals that are or have been SICK, not normal healthy hatchlings or even slightly weak hatchlings.

If your victums(those being forcefed) appear to be healthy or check out to be healthy(vet check). That is, no real reason to not feed. Then what they are doing is a direct reflection of your husbandry. Consider, this percentage is a indication of what needs improvement. For instance, If you have 3% that need force feeding, then your 97% in the good and only need 3% improvement. So I am not saying you suck, you just have room to improve. If fact, you do not have to change your regular routine. Only provide better conditions for the ones you are force feeding. In most cases, with normal successful husbandry, its a hydration problem. Neonate kings, seek humid air and dry substrate.(a difficult combination in captivity)

And Yes, I understand some hatchlings are SICK. But then that also means theres room for improvement. I also understand, a certain percentage will not make it, but is that what we are talking about? You will have to admit, that most of the ones you force feed will make it. That means there was nothing wrong with them. Its only your conditions that are marginal.

Of course, if you like force feeding, have at it. It just seems so unnecessary. Cheers

Nice post FR. You certainly have to wonder when the term "problem feeder" is applied to such a "difficult" species as eastern kings. Ken

Ken

Some locales of Easterns are problem feeders in that they want a particular prey item. Do you disagree? Please if you have info on getting northern locale Eastern eating without a hitch please share.

Keith
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Hi Ken,

I think that all of us would agree that snakes are individuals and a problem feeder can occur in any species. Sure, adult easterns of all locals will eat just about anything that you put in front of them, however, a small pecentage of babies (mostly northern types) simply don't want mice. It is for those snakes that this technique is used, and used quite successfully I might add. We are not assembly line stuffing baby easterns with mouse tails, just getting the few going that need it. After a couple of mouse tails, most go on to accept pinkies, grow and do very well. I think this thread is getting taken a bit out of context.

Will

but some times it takes me longer to figure out what a particular individual needs than the young one has time for. Force feeding is only stop gap and takes the place until things click with me or the snake. I also don't consider eastern kingsnakes difficult to get eating even eating frozen thawed right from the start. I also understand that my prefered choice of food is not always theirs. The bottom line is force feeding is a tool many people use on the occasional problem.

Great post below also.
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Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.4 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana super peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic

Well I dont totally agree with you Frank. The more northern types of Eastern Kings can be a pain in the ass. Its not that they wont eat anything its that they want something in particular. When I first hatched out NJ Easterns in 2003 they wouldnt eat any live pinks or dead lizards are dead snakes. When I aquired some live baby Watersnakes they ate with gusto ! Now if I had been improperly caring for them up until that point then by your theory they shouldnt have eatn the Waters. My point is sometimes they want something in particular. You make it sound like if I meet every sinlge need they would eat anything and I think thats bunk. Did the hatchling snakes you used to rear in babyfood jars eat well ? If so was it because you meet their needs of a dry substarte and high humidity ?

Keith

>>Or you call actually address the issue and stop being so bullheaded and change your husbandry methods to something that fits the needs of those baby snakes. Then there will be no need to force feed.
>>
>> Force feeding is usually a tool for animals that are or have been SICK, not normal healthy hatchlings or even slightly weak hatchlings.
>>
>> If your victums(those being forcefed) appear to be healthy or check out to be healthy(vet check). That is, no real reason to not feed. Then what they are doing is a direct reflection of your husbandry. Consider, this percentage is a indication of what needs improvement. For instance, If you have 3% that need force feeding, then your 97% in the good and only need 3% improvement. So I am not saying you suck, you just have room to improve. If fact, you do not have to change your regular routine. Only provide better conditions for the ones you are force feeding. In most cases, with normal successful husbandry, its a hydration problem. Neonate kings, seek humid air and dry substrate.(a difficult combination in captivity)
>>
>> And Yes, I understand some hatchlings are SICK. But then that also means theres room for improvement. I also understand, a certain percentage will not make it, but is that what we are talking about? You will have to admit, that most of the ones you force feed will make it. That means there was nothing wrong with them. Its only your conditions that are marginal.
>>
>> Of course, if you like force feeding, have at it. It just seems so unnecessary. Cheers
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You don't have to agree. But I would ask, is feeding watersnakes, force feeding. No its not. So the question becomes, if your going to breed kingsnakes that only eat watersnakes, then why don't you prepare ahead of time and have watersnakes to feed them?
I and most others also understand there are many steps, scenting and a million such tricks that come before force feeding.

Sir, that is only common sense. If your saying you would rather force feed them then offer them what they recognize as food. Then I say, your not very considerate/caring/thoughtful, and that can be considered poor husbandry. Yes? Cheers

I think you need to make yourself more clear then. Some snakes are looking for a particular food item. If someone doesnt know what that is and you sit there and tell them its their husbadry techniques you have failed them with bunk info. I myself didnt know that first year that they would be a pain but I did get waternskes the next year.They wouldnt take scented pinks nor dead water snakes or any of the other techniques. They wanted em wigglin and alive and coldblooded. I dont have acsess to a multitude of snakes here in Wisconsin to feed my captives to so I have to order them and I did. I see where you are coming from now but you just painted with a broad brush and didnt account for hatchlings wanting a certain prey items.

Keith
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I should not expect you to understand. I guess I should treat you like a beginer.

You know to have to explain things that are very common sense.

I did mention, normal healthy reluctant feeders, I guess I should have made a mile long list of exceptions. You know, for baby scarlet kings, and baby wormsnakes. And watersnake perfering kingsnakes, etc etc etc.

So I will say. Please do not ever offer me any snakes you force fed, I do not want them. I love to keep snakes that eat like pigs from day one. Thats kinda an experienced thing I guess. I also hope you tell people you excess your babies too, which ones were forced fed. Again, maybe thats only something for those with experience.

To sum it up, you should prepare for what your hatching. And force feeding should be a last ditch effort. Clear enough? Cheers

It wasnt for my sake but I knew you would interpet it that way. The thing is Frank this forum does have many beginners and they see something like Bob's post on force feeding they will probably take a look. They may or may not have any idea that some snakes want certain food items but they do read by you a respected menber of the herp community that if they aint eating your doing something wrong. Now many times that is the case but there should be some alternatives mentioned and you failed to do so now and you have in the past when this subject came up. You paint with a broad brush and dont allow for other possibilities. Maybe you feel we are all inept compared to your eons of breeding and success ??? I wish you hadnt taken my post so personally because in essence I agree with you just that you didnt account for picky feeders. Now go ahead and insult me as per usuall...or not

Keith
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So what, I never claimed to post information for beginers. In fact, I normally only question the folks with experience. I will leave them to you.

I am not a beginer and I have no idea how they think. In fact, I am not sure I want to ever know how they think. Why would I?

At one time, I had a talk with the person who started KS, I recomended they divide some of the forums. I recomended they split it on levels of experience. As its very normal for beginers to not understand what those with experience are saying. thats normal in all walks of life. Unfortunately, he went in a different direction.

So here we are a jumble of different levels of experience. I wonder why we don't understand eachother????? hmmmmmmmm got me! I wonder why we fight? again got me. For instance, you treat me like I don't know what a eastern king is, hmmmmm I bred them in 1970 i believe, how old were you then? I know what eastern kings are and have for a very long time. Sir, I am not new.

While I am here, what I found odd is. Why would people want those with more experience to comunicate on a level less then their experience level. I would think, folks would want to read whats current with those experienced, instead of having the experienced talk down to a beginers level. yes, I wonder that.

Also, none of this is about how smart or what kind of people anyone is. Its merely about keeping experience with kingsnakes.

For instance, I have been away from kingsnakes for some time. Please don't blame me but, it has not progressed in twenty years. All the husbandry your doing now, was done so very long ago. A person would have thought there would be lots of improvements. In fact, it seems to have backslid. Oh wait, sweater boxes now come in many more sizes then they used to.

The only difference is, now theres a continuation of old morphs and some new ones. I guess thats good. Cheers

>>So what, I never claimed to post information for beginers. In fact, I normally only question the folks with experience. I will leave them to you.

See you couldnt resist lol.

>>
>> I am not a beginer and I have no idea how they think. In fact, I am not sure I want to ever know how they think. Why would I?

Understanding how a beginner thinks can help them become intermediates then someday advanced hobbyist. Im not suggesting holding anyones hand but this forum is what it is a mish mash of levels. Isnt that why you posted what you did ? To help Bob or anyone else in the same boat ? If not them why ?
>>
>> At one time, I had a talk with the person who started KS, I recomended they divide some of the forums. I recomended they split it on levels of experience. As its very normal for beginers to not understand what those with experience are saying. thats normal in all walks of life. Unfortunately, he went in a different direction.

Thats an excellent idea!
>>
>> So here we are a jumble of different levels of experience. I wonder why we don't understand eachother????? hmmmmmmmm got me! I wonder why we fight? again got me. For instance, you treat me like I don't know what a eastern king is, hmmmmm I bred them in 1970 i believe, how old were you then? I know what eastern kings are and have for a very long time. Sir, I am not new.

We argue because for the reasons I outlined in the post above. You make blanket statements without consideration of other variables. You have since made yourself clear you arent interested in helping beginners only semi-seasoned herpetoculturist. I now know where you are coming from. I never said you dont know squat about Easterns I simply stated fact sir if you choose top ignore fact thats on you. Some Easterns are picky feeders(inreagrds to taking mice or not) if you disagree with that then you dont know Easterns. Also in 1970 I was born so there we now know you are older than I
>>
>> While I am here, what I found odd is. Why would people want those with more experience to comunicate on a level less then their experience level. I would think, folks would want to read whats current with those experienced, instead of having the experienced talk down to a beginers level. yes, I wonder that.

You are missing the point...and the point is that this forum is what it is a collection of varying levels. I dont tailor all my responses to make all understand but if its a comment that I feel will be of interest to beginner and expert alike I will make an effort to include them.
>>
>> Also, none of this is about how smart or what kind of people anyone is. Its merely about keeping experience with kingsnakes.

EXACTLY!
>>
>> For instance, I have been away from kingsnakes for some time. Please don't blame me but, it has not progressed in twenty years. All the husbandry your doing now, was done so very long ago. A person would have thought there would be lots of improvements. In fact, it seems to have backslid. Oh wait, sweater boxes now come in many more sizes then they used to.

Maybe its simply peaked ??? I dont know what to say except thats usually the way of humans. Someone makes the breakthru and others fine tune it and live with that for years. Maybe what you started all those years ago was so effective and it works why change it. Also I guess it depends what you are referring to in reagrds slid backwards. It cant be the production of snakes via breeding because thats not an issue. If you mean care and the animals welfare then I dont disagree with you. People are going to always take the path of least resistance i.e. rack systems paper towel beeding or even your babyfood jar hatchling system. I think it would be great if everyone could have 6' cages so they can acheive temp gradients like they might find in the wild but that would mean most would have to cut their population drastically. Im guessin' most arent willing to do that. Is a 6' cage with awesome temp ranges whats best for the snakes ? sure but in this hobby in this age of little time and fast paced lives the kings have to adapt to us as much as we adapt to them..i.e. a happy medium. If I owned just a few snakes I would keep them in spacious digs but I dont and I dont have the room or time to do otherwise. Does that make me a bad keeper ? In some eyes I guess but I will just have to live with myself.

p.s. Frank I dont dislike you I think you have tons of things to offer and I would rather see you on here than not be here. I also dont feel threatened by you as I know you have forgotten more thna I know and Im okay with that. All of us are getting by via the work that you and others have done in the past, thats a fact and Im gratefull. Maybe Im just too arguementative for my own good and I should let things roll off my back more... At least thats what my wife tells me

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I also got the roundabout dig at me (see below)lol. Just didnt want you thinking your "slight" went unnoticed I actually would consider myself middle of the road. Im no beginner and Im not an advanced hobbysit either. I might have been farther along but standing in my way as a kid growing up without the internet was 2 parents and a mess of TFH books. Some of those books were bad and still are lol. For as much as you and others did it wasnt until the internet came along until that info was readily available.

Frank wrote...

I am not a beginer and I have no idea how they think. In fact, I am not sure I want to ever know how they think. Why would I?

So here we are a jumble of different levels of experience. I wonder why we don't understand eachother????? hmmmmmmmm got me!

lol nice
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>> All the husbandry your doing now, was done so very long ago. A person would have thought there would be lots of improvements. In fact, it seems to have backslid. Oh wait, sweater boxes now come in many more sizes then they used to.
>>

Too funny and too true.

I would also point out that many snakes are CB for so many generations that they would die even if they had normal colors in the wild. Corn snakes( captive for 40 years) eat 99% of the time in captivity... that is unless you are dealing with babies from a WC female. Then you will have maybe a 50% success rate with domestic mice. Most breeders will keep back the nicest looking and the best feeders out of a clutch. After a few generations that will increases the success rate. A F1 of most snakes can still pose problems though.

Now many Eastern Kings in the hobby today are less than 3 generations from the wild so problem feeders are not that unusual. Take Will's line and I bet that he bred for looks (speculation) more than feed response. Now that there are more babies with the "right" look that line can bred for feed response. I am not saying that his line has problem feeders but this one in question is from that line and is a F4-5??

Now if you are going to try and tell me that you can't bred for feed response then I am going to question your basis for that. Yes some locals of snakes are rodent feeders from the get go but some are geared for lizard or a number of other food items. Unless you are going to argue that point then you can't really argue that if you breed the snakes that take off on domestic mouse pinks right away you will be heading in a direction to get more feeders in following years.

To back up my reasoning I will say that I have some alterna stock that feeds 90% of the time in 3 weeks from hatching and some others that feed at about 50%. One are from a locale line (50%) and the others are from a generic line(90%). Further I had about 150 corn babies one year all from domestic lines (albino and such) that fed at about 90% and the same year about 100 F1 babies from WC females all over the state that fed at about 40-50%. Though I did have near 100% from 2 clutches that came from agricultural fields where mice are plentiful while 2 clutches off the barrier islands had to all be forced feed because even the adults on those island are eating anoles almost all the time.

I get the bit about improving the husbandry but that is not always the problem. Nothing will convince me that my husbandry is to blame when a whole clutch eats but the clutch next it does not when they have such different backgrounds.

To me a mouse tail forced into the mouth is far better than a WC lizard even if it has been frozen. Yes you stress out the snake but if it takes 2-3 times I think it will have less stress than being treated for parasites down the road because of a lizard or other wc food item.

Later Jason

Actually I wonder several things, First, did you read the post, I mentioned individuals that were not sick. As in normal but not feeding.

I would imagine, genetic misfits should be included in the sick group.

Now I wonder, why on earth would you want to keep genetic misfits alive? And why would you breed for that?

Of course breeding for color and patterns is great, I did that like crazy, but surely breeding for snakes that are not fit is not recomended. I would think that is common sense.

Those individuals should not be allowed to continue passing those genes. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm culled is the word I am looking for. They have that word for a reason.

So yes, I was not considering genetic misfits or wormsnakes in my post. Sorry cheers

What the hell are you talking about. Are you pulling your usual deal of reading one post and responding to another?? I can't even see that. Who talked about genetic misfits??

I am talking about all healthy snakes from both CB lines many generations in and F1 babies from different ecological habitats. Where you got genetic misfits from will be as mysteries as where you get off telling everybody to improve their husbandry after telling the same people how to build a cheap baby rack. Which by design can offer none of the things you are telling people that they need to provide. HMMMMMMMMMMMM

WTF????????

Well I am not sure, you went on and on about cornsnakes bred for this and that. Then something about some of the offspring are not good feeders or some such thing.

When you breed for genetic traits, you normally inbreed. Which is usually not a problem even after many many generations. But if you do recieve individuals that are not longer good feeders, you may be experiencing inbred depression. Which is genetic misfits.

Again I am not sure what you were talking about in this last post something about not recognizing their prey????? Again, if you bred out what a genus or species normally consider prey, instinctual prey recognition, then I would again call them misfits of the genetic varity. Cheers

Frank what he is saying is first generation neonates from wild-caught parents have in his experience wanted natural prey (lizards) more often than neonates from multi-generation captive parents. Indicating captive selection for domestic mouse feeders is possible. Of course this means the snakes are probably less fit for life in the wild as you say.

Frank seems to not read others post if they are longer than a sentence. That is why he thinks I wrote the complete opposite of what I wrote. So thank you for making a concise statement but it is probably still to long of a post for him to bother reading. The problem with knowing everything is that nobody has anything to offer you in your mind.

Thanks Jason

N.P.

Hi Frank,

Sorry, I should have made it clear in my agreement that this technique works for the very small percentage of babies that don't readily feed on their own. The vast majority of babies begin feeding aggressively on their own (on unscented pink mice) soon after hatchling. It is for those very few that this technique is advocated, and for those babies that do need a little kick start, the technique that Bob outlines does the job and gets them on their way.

Actually, this should probably be described as an assist feeding technique as the babies begin swallowing on their own once the tail is in their mouth. I agree that if husbandry needs are met, most babies will eat what they are offered, however, some simply won't. It is for them and their keepers that Bob was describing this technique I believe. Thanks.

Will

sure do have lively discussions over here.

Eh, just good old fashioned healthy family squabbles!!! Read on jmoore, there's lots of good stuff mixed in here. I am not an experienced snake raiser or breeder, just an excellant snake catcher and observer. But I like keeping them and I make mistakes from time to time. I use much of this info to try to help myself give the snakes more options to be successful, but I also use what I see them doing in the field and that means a varied diet, a SECURE hide and clean water and plenty of it. I also don't handle them as often as most here because I am not raising "pets" per say, but a little slice of what's out there. I know my views aren't everyones' and that's cool with me. I hope we all let things slide with a little humility and learn and for God's sake people, get out in the field some times and observe them in their habitats! It's nothing like we provide for them!!! Some times I bring home some soil or rocks from the capture zone, but that's about it! They don't live in sweater boxes or 20 gallon terrariums or boaphiles! So most of this is moot but I gotta hand it to ya' sometimes it's better than the Sopranos!!!LOL!

Todd Hughes