Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am to ship a snake for someone to MO and it is VERY cold on the Northeast at the moment... it has been running in the mid 20s-low 30's. I told them that it isnt a good idea so ship at the moment, but both parties want it shipped. I am shipping the snake for someone for a trade with someone else.. Shipping would be Via Fed-ex. I dont feel comfortable below 40, but they both want it done. I have 2 40 hour heatpacks and will be dropping it right off to the Fedex terminal... should I be ok? Opinions? thanks in advance..

I would advise against it - there is no reason to jeapardize the health of the snake. If its not your snake and they want to release you of any responsibility if the snake arrives dead or developes an RI then I guess you could consider it - but I wouldn't, if they are that desperate to ship the snake have them do it theirselves.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I live in Canada and we ship year-round up here. Air cargo, gets there the same day. If you pack it PROPERLY, I don't know what the problem is????

Hot weather scares me a HUNDRED times more than cold weather. 48-hour heat packs and 1kg heat-retaining gel packs. 1" styrofoam and heavy-duty cardboard box (use tropical fish boxes) and you are good to go! Minus whatever and my boxes always arrive 80F and PERFECT.

I really don't see the big deal about cold weather. Its the HOT weather you have to worry about.

Jeff, I tend to agree. A cold snake, provided it's not frozen, can be warmed up. If overheated they will most likely die. JMHO.

Quig

if the box that YOU plan to heat using 2 heat packs and is expected to be in freezing weather is suddenly placed inside a heated room. I saw somewhere where someone placed a monitoring device inside a package to record the temps at set intervals. It was amazing to see and if I remember correctly, there was 50 degree difference between the high and low. Your 70 degree box could end up being over 100 degrees if placed inside a heated office.

My packages start out their first 1-2 hours in an office (heated in the winter, cooled in the summer). Then they go to a truck and off to a sorting plant, back to a truck and then to the plane - temps are fluctuating all over the place.

In most cases, you can get away with it. But what happens if a box is lost? Properly packed still may not save the animal's life.

And it also depends on where you are shipping (to and from). If someone in Canada for example is sending me a package and they add two 48 hour heat packs, the animals would be dead by the time I opened the box here in FL.

I agree with you on the heat. These animals can tolerate extreme cold far better than extreme heat. And that's what concerns me with added heat packs. I think most people do not ship when the low temp is below 45 degrees.

For the original poster, consider all variables and ship with caution.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

if the box that YOU plan to heat using 2 heat packs and is expected to be in freezing weather is suddenly placed inside a heated room. I saw somewhere where someone placed a monitoring device inside a package to record the temps at set intervals. It was amazing to see and if I remember correctly, there was 50 degree difference between the high and low. Your 70 degree box could end up being over 100 degrees if placed inside a heated office.

That only applies if you have heat packs that give unlimited heat. If you're heat pack reaches an upper limit of 90F, then no amount of "heated room" 90F and below is going to make that box climb any higher. If you have a heat pack that keeps giving heat infinitely until 150F, then yeah, its going to heat the box up more in a warm room than a freezing room. But to my knowledge, such heat packs do not exist. Remember, these heat packs are designed for the FISH industry. Fish don't like the heat. They like it less than reptiles. It take the O2 out of the water.

Furthermore, the use of heat-retainign gel packs eliminates any over-heating problems. Heat the gel pack to 90F, and it will slowly cool over time. By the time that box hits a sunny tarmac or an over-heated room, the gel packs are slightly less than what they started at. It takes a LOT to warm them up. Therefore, the box stays at the temp of the heat pack as well. This works well in the HEAT of summer where I heat the gel packs to 70F, then I don't have to worry about over-heating.

In most cases, you can get away with it. But what happens if a box is lost? Properly packed still may not save the animal's life.

How is shipping at any other time of year going to help if the box is lost?? If the box is lost, its LOST! LOL!

If someone in Canada for example is sending me a package and they add two 48 hour heat packs, the animals would be dead by the time I opened the box here in FL.

Noooooo.....(for reasons stated above). If you pack the box properly with the right amount of heat SINKS and enough buffer capacity, the box can withstand AMAZING amounts of heat and cold. When I first started out 11 years ago, I did TONS of tests on empty (no herps) boxes. Leaving them outside in winter, leaving them in DIRECT sun, etc etc. If you pack them PROPERLY, they take a LONG time to fluctuate.

These animals can tolerate extreme cold far better than extreme heat. And that's what concerns me with added heat packs.

Yeah, but don't use heat packs that get to 150F and you'll be fine. I have never seen any heat packs get past 100F. And its not like you put the heta pack IN the deli cup with the snake. I'll snap a pic of a box next time I ship (this week). I'll show you. Winter shipping rocks. Much better than summer, in my opinion. Best is spring. Fall is good, but lots of storms up here that cause delays.

Shipping is 10x easier than most people think.

The heat packs I use (Uniheat)heat to an average of 109* with a max of 135* (so it says on the package) but I have tested them and after 8 hours they were at 144* - wanna guess what the inside of the box was at. I have also received more than one box where the heat pack has failed and I've receved an icicle snake (and I live in sunny So. Cal) what do you want to bet the snake would be sick or dead if it was being shipped to someplace with with freezing weather. There is no reason to ship a snake in freezing weather - wait until it warms.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

There is no reason to ship a snake in freezing weather - wait until it warms.

There is no reason to tell people what to do when they have been doing it for over a decade and actually know what they are doing.

How many snakes have you shipped?

I don't recall telling anyone how to ship their animals.

The fact remains that by large most people agree that shipping when temperatures are freezing is unadvisable,(big breeders included - check their web pages, I did 99% of the web pages have a weather related clause in their shipping TOS) the only exception seems to be if they are shipping same day airport to airport.

I am sure that you have plenty of money or replacement animals in case of accident, but not everyone has that luxury. If you want to put your animals in a precarious situation that is your prerogative, I would not any more advise someone to ship in freezing weather as I would to put a hot rock in the cage for warmth – it can be done – but there are better ways.

And maybe I missed something – but what was that reason that someone absolutely needs to have the animal shipped into freezing weather?
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I did 99% of the web pages have a weather related clause in their shipping TOS) the only exception seems to be if they are shipping same day airport to airport.

That must be where we had confusion, because the ONLY way to ship in Canada is same day, airport-to-airport. There is no other way and the shipping companies FedEx, Purolator, etc etc do NOT accept live animals (yikes, who would ship with them anyways).

And maybe I missed something – but what was that reason that someone absolutely needs to have the animal shipped into freezing weather?

Because its easy to do and there's NO risk if you ship & package PROPERLY. After a few hundred boxes, you see how it works. The freezing argument doesn't really matter as even in the dead-heat of summer, its still minus 50 when the plane is 50,000 feet in the air. Ship with the right airlines, and your box will be fine. Ship the animals with a parcel company and don't tell them its live and you take your chances. Not worth it.

Maybe I missed something - but what exactly was the reason that it was so much more dangerous to ship in cold weather than it is to ship in non-cold weather??? Please speak from EXPERIENCE and not what you THINK might happen.

Again - most people here in the US do ship via courier - UPS, Fedex, DHL - so they are speaking in terms of an overnight trip as well as several layover hours in a variety of temperatures, from tarmac to back of the truck- not just airport to airport. Yes Fedex does except live animals in the US - others don't tho. Yes I am certified to ship snakes thru them, yes every box I send out is properly packed (styro, with padding and heat or cold packs) and labeled with the contents directly on the box in several places. Yes I have sent or received several hundred animals in the last year alone via this service. The only fatality I have had was due to an ignorant buyer insisting on having me ship against my better judgement, then he slept through the Fedex delivery. On the receiving end I have received animals that are almost frozen (due to heatpack failure or lack thereof) or mispacked - hate it when that happens. have heard many people with snakes that have ended up with RIs due to shipping too cold. Had to wait for two months through last years freak winter, to get my pastel, albino and some hets, but I waited, patiently - don't see why anyone else can't. Got some nice offers on some animals I recently had up for sale - unfortunately had to decline as it wasn't safe to ship. Again - not really an issue if it's airport to airport but when you are talking 12-18 hours, sitting in the back of a delivery truck or in a warehouse somewhere - it becomes more of an issue. Balls are resiliant little things but I prefer to err on the side of caution and advise others to do the same.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Delivery trucks with unsympathetic/idiot drivers could potentially be a nightmare, even at the best of times. I agree. With so many flights at all the major airports in the US, why ship anything but through the major airlines??

Delivery trucks scare me just thinking about it!!

Jeff

It's good to hear from you, you haven’t been posting much lately.

Anyway, I'm glad you are giving true info out, and not just reiterating what you have read from the internet.

After all experience is the best teacher, isn't it??

Please do post some photos next time you ship, it would be a learning experience for most here.

Enough said

TomChambers

Shipping twice on Wednesday. Victoria to Montreal and Victoria to Toronto. BOTH overnight flights, BOTH connecting on 3 different airplanes, and BOTH taking more than 12 hours.

Cheers.

>>That only applies if you have heat packs that give unlimited heat. If you're heat pack reaches an upper limit of 90F, then no amount of "heated room" 90F and below is going to make that box climb any higher. If you have a heat pack that keeps giving heat infinitely until 150F, then yeah, its going to heat the box up more in a warm room than a freezing room. But to my knowledge, such heat packs do not exist. Remember, these heat packs are designed for the FISH industry. Fish don't like the heat. They like it less than reptiles. It take the O2 out of the water.

I use UniHeat (for fish) and it states an average of 108* but can reach 135*. How long do you think an animal will last at 135*?

>>
>>Furthermore, the use of heat-retainign gel packs eliminates any over-heating problems. Heat the gel pack to 90F, and it will slowly cool over time. By the time that box hits a sunny tarmac or an over-heated room, the gel packs are slightly less than what they started at. It takes a LOT to warm them up. Therefore, the box stays at the temp of the heat pack as well. This works well in the HEAT of summer where I heat the gel packs to 70F, then I don't have to worry about over-heating.

By the time? The study I read also contained a graph that showed rising and falling temperatures throughout the shipment. You might think your animal is only going to be heated at the end of the trip. They just might be heated enroute when you are expecting the coldest temps.

>>How is shipping at any other time of year going to help if the box is lost?? If the box is lost, its LOST! LOL!

Let me rephrase that: Lost for a couple of hours, or a day. It makes a huge difference. Boxes are (temporarily) lost all the time.

>>Noooooo.....(for reasons stated above). If you pack the box properly with the right amount of heat SINKS and enough buffer capacity, the box can withstand AMAZING amounts of heat and cold. When I first started out 11 years ago, I did TONS of tests on empty (no herps) boxes. Leaving them outside in winter, leaving them in DIRECT sun, etc etc. If you pack them PROPERLY, they take a LONG time to fluctuate.

I'll take your word for it. And still ship when I feel it's safe and affords the best survival rate for the animal if, for whatever reason, something goes wrong.

>>
>>These animals can tolerate extreme cold far better than extreme heat. And that's what concerns me with added heat packs.
>>
>>Shipping is 10x easier than most people think.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons why we hear so many stories about DOAs. As long as it works for you... enjoy
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I use UniHeat (for fish) and it states an average of 108* but can reach 135*. How long do you think an animal will last at 135*?

So the little 4" by 3" heat pack gets to 135F and all of a sudden the WHOLE box is 135F?? That's SOME magic heat pack. Even if your heat pack gets to 150F, what's the big deal? Put the heat pack at the opposite end of the shipping box. Wrap the heat pack (loosely, then need O2 to activate) in newspaper. I would be quite surprised if you had a small fish heat pack that got the ambient temp in the shipping box to the surface temp of the heat pack!! Holy moly! Quite the product!

I'll take your word for it. And still ship when I feel it's safe and affords the best survival rate for the animal if, for whatever reason, something goes wrong.

For sure dood. You GOTTA do what is comfortable for you (and your customer). If you are not comfortable with cold temps, then DON'T do it. If you're not sure about international shipping, LEARN before you do it. An ounce of prevention...... I totally agree with you there man. Breeding snakes can be stressful enough sometimes, so you don't need to be stressed about shipping as well. Its not worth it.

Shipping is 10x easier than most people think.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons why we hear so many stories about DOAs. As long as it works for you... enjoy

Would you say that keeping Ball Pythons is hard? No......right? Super easy. But how many people without the know-how kill their pet snakes by doing stupid things? Heat lamps, screen cages, too cold, live food that eats the snake, etc etc etc. Does that mean that Ball Pythons are hard to keep because TONS of idiots kill them every year? No. Same with shipping. Snakes arrive DOA all the time. That's doesn't mean they are hard to ship. It means that people don't know what the &%!@# they are doing half the time.

Yeppers.