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Using the two male to one female breeding method, I am wondering if it would be possible to have this example happen...

Cinny male and Pastel Male Bred to a Normal female could a pewter come out of it. Since if you breed a pewter to a normal you get pewter's is there an even faster way to make the pewter.. Idea's and Opinions???

My opinion is a BIG Maybe.. I say this because it's obvious in co dom's that you don't need the female's alles to line up yet it would mean two sperm would enter one egg. Puzzling because as a retic guy I have produced super tiger retics from breeding a tiger to a normal female.... It's rare but it has happened...

That would mean that 2 sperm were to fertilize 1 egg. Even if it were physically possible genetically I don't think so as you'd have 3 sets of chromosomes where there should only be 2. I don't think the animal would survive..........it so it would be a some type of freak of nature and extensively studied by the medical community.

With the number of animals that have multiple sex partners I think it's been proven over and over again that 2 fathers can't father 1 child.

Regards,
Corey

Corey, if it were physically possible then it would be gentically possible.. SO when you brred two different male tiger's to the same female how do you explain getting two super's in the clutch???

ps the female is normal..unrealted to the tiger genetics...

Not familiar with the whole "super tiger" story - but how do you know that the female doesn't carry the tiger gene? We see "normal" balls all the time that end up being a het for something else or carrying some dormant gene that shows up when mixed with another morph. Even if two sperm created the "super tiger" - those sperm would have to mix with moms dna inside the egg right - so how could it not also be part "normal" if that is in fact what she is. I don't get it - is there an article somewhere that we can read?
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

11.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

His example would be like breeding a pastel ball to a normal and getting supers....

Maybe tiger is a little messy like pastel and you can't always tell exactly what you have. I've seen posts of pastel siblings that where on the line between normal and pastel. Maybe mom was an extremely normal looking tiger. On the other hand, maybe the two "super tigers" where genetically heterozygous (normal) tigers but on the extreme end and only looked like homozygous (super) tigers. Have they been bred yet to prove they are super tigers? I've also seen cases where pastel X pastel has produced animals that are on the line between pastel and super pastel so it's not always cut and dry.

Can you post a pic of the normal, tiger, and super tiger together? I'm not sure I get the whole tiger idea.

Brandon Osborne

I don't think it is physically or genetically possible.

Corey

For what it's worth, Corey is right. You can have multiple paternities within a clutch, but each egg gets only one daddy. I'm only aware of situations in plants in which a polyploid (meaning more than the customary set of chromosomes, i.e., more than the 2 sets found in snakes or humans for that matter) is viable.

There is NO way a single baby can have genetic material from more than one father.

Ocasionally the are some mistakes in the formation of gametes in which one or more chromosomes is duplicated within a sperm or egg. When joined to the opposite sex cell, you could have three copies of a particular chromosome. In such cases, a condition called trisomy occurs (Down Syndrome in humans is a condition caused by trisomy - chromosome #23 I think). There are several other trisomy conditions in humans, all causing some sort of developmental, reproductive, or mental abnormality.

SO here is a possible explanation for your retics where you get a supertiger from a tiger to normal breeding. Lets say you get a sperm cell with two sets of the particular chromosome containing the tiger gene. The resulting offspring would have "trisomy" for that chromosome (three copies of that particular chromosome).

SO...whereas a normal supert tiger retic would be TT in regards to its alleles for the tiger gene, you could possibly have a TTt individual that would express the supertiger phenotype (look). It may be that there is little or no abnormality, or that any abnormality is small enough to go unnoticed.

This is really the only resonable (albeit a stretch) explanation that I can think of....anybody out there with another?

Hey man. You usually chime in on all the same genetics debates that I find interesting. It seems we usually seem to agree on issues. I wanted to point out my previous post for your review. Let me know what you think...

You should read through the article that Paul linked up to this conversation it opens quite a big door, I see no reason why in reptiles this can't happen especially when there may be a few examples already.. Maybe Paradoxing is exactly this Mosaicing ability, afterall reptiles are not as complex as humans.. Pete Kahl has the Paradox stripe. RDR the Paradox snow, I have a paradox anery, and I have seen pics of burm paradoxing and other pythons and corn snakes. Now let's look into this a little further.
Say there are two ways of these odd animals to develope, The first and more rare and extreme variation being bipaternity sperm fertilization ie. Mosaic, and the other is incomplete homzygous genenetics not aligning correctly causing only a small area to be a single color like some paradox albino balls. There was one paradox albino ball that comes under the Mosaic idea and there are some that come under incomplete homozygous idea. After reading the article and then going out and looking up so more about this idea I have to say there's quite a bit out there about bipaternity sperm fertilization that seems to hold water....

IF I read that artical correctly, the instance of "bipaternity" is really the chimera syndrome I mentioned below. Notice that the egg was "bipolar(-the term they used)". In other words, two eggs in one. The resulting offspring was not infact a single egg with two different sperm cells fertilizing it, but two distinct eggs, each fertilized by one sperm.

So, back to your original situation, that could only produce a baby thats half one trait and half the other, not both. Look at the pidgeon and tranfer the same results onto a snake...Lets use spider and pastel for the traits in question. It would seem the "mosaic" model would give you a snake that may be pastel for several inches and spider for the next few inches....not a bumble bee. Follow me?

As I read on the idea of mosaicing a spider and pastel became much cooler. I still wonder the later idea but I see your point and saw it a few posts back... Mosaicing to me explains Paradoxing in many ways...

I'm with you on the mosaic thing beeing potentially pretty neat to look at. Now for the mind blower...........how can one tell the difference between a piebald ball python and a mosaic involving a leucy and an abberant/high orange baby.............

Pied would have a half white head....lol um not so much laughing though seriously I think the head would be white or half white and no pied has a white head yet...

LOL....that brings us to another crazt question.....why in the H-E-double hockey sticks do piebalds always have the dark head. In other examples of piebaldism in the animal world, the white can pop up anywhere. No white headed piebald BPs have been produced.

Somebody upstairs is really messing with us........

Right?? I have yet to see a pied crow with an all white head..

I've never seen a pied crow....didn't know they existed. My main experience is with pied mice...the white can be on the head, tail, or anywhere in between.

From my understanding sometimes these genes for white and piebald can be deleterious to essential organs. It could be that a piebald ball with a white head would not develop correctly congenitally and not make it past its developmental stages. For example, I know that in some animals like white Boxers (dog) the white gene can lead to malformation of the eyes and ears internally as well as make them susceptible to cancers etc. I also read somewhere that horses homozygous for white cannot be born because for some reason the white gene affects the development of nerves in utero. It could be that the head of the piebald ball python must have relatively normal pigmentation in order to develop properly to live. Or it could be that we haven't been lucky enough to see one as cool looking as to have a white head. Just my 2 cents...

Rafael

you didn't get any supers out of that pairing, you just got some killer tigers. Did you hold back the "supers" from that breeding and breed them to normals and get all tigers, if not you cannot be 100% sure they were supers.
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Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Infact one of them was one of the nicest Super Tiger's I had produced. The 1st time this happen was in the 2000 breeding season then in the 2002 breeding season. The 2000 Super tiger was born in an odd twinning situation. One was a Super one was a wierd tiger they made it full term but then never emerged alive from the egg. The 2002 Super was sold to a breeder in PA and at last call that breeder had bred gim to normals and to other super's with out any strange results. He has shown in 2 breeding season or so that he is a super tiger.

>>Using the two male to one female breeding method, I am wondering if it would be possible to have this example happen...
>>
>>Cinny male and Pastel Male Bred to a Normal female could a pewter come out of it. Since if you breed a pewter to a normal you get pewter's is there an even faster way to make the pewter.. Idea's and Opinions???
>>
>>My opinion is a BIG Maybe.. I say this because it's obvious in co dom's that you don't need the female's alles to line up yet it would mean two sperm would enter one egg. Puzzling because as a retic guy I have produced super tiger retics from breeding a tiger to a normal female.... It's rare but it has happened...
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Jeremy Conrad
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...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...
2.20 normals
1.0 Matrix Blonde
1.0 Albino (Bell line)
1.0 Het Pied
1.0 Het Clown
1.0 Run-Away (Oh how I miss him!)

This sort of thing has been known to happen. They are called "mosaics" in pigeons. But I don't think it will do what you want, at least not if it works the same way in both snakes and pigeons.

Paul Hollander
Mosaic pigeon page

Is Paradoxing the same thing in reptiles as Mosiac is to pigeons ??? Is that why it's so rare Imagine for a moment that instead of the original thought of two father's it is one but two sperm one sperm being het the other being homozygous for a recessive trait could it cause for this mosiacing to happen??? This is good stuff....

I have heard from more then one breeder that alot of the paradox animals were actually twins sharing the same egg or sack, as they mature they become one snake causing many albinos to have blotches of normal patterns. aoane of the twins was alb the other norm.

Does that mean there are actually two poeple inside me?
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Jeremy Conrad
_____________

...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...
2.20 normals
1.0 Matrix Blonde
1.0 Albino (Bell line)
1.0 Het Pied
1.0 Het Clown
1.0 Run-Away (Oh how I miss him!)

I did see this thing on the discovery channel about this gal who failed a "maternity" test for her kids. Even though she gave birth to them, they did not appear to be related to her when their DNA was tested. Turns out there is an extremely rare condition where basically a set of twins develops into one person, who has more than one genotype (most of her cells had one genetic profile, others had a different profile). I believed they called it "chimera" syndrome. In her case, her reproductive system was forming egg cells with her "other" genotype. A very weird deal indeed. They profiled several people who had the condition.

I caught the end of that show, I wish i would of seen the whole thing.. It was brought up on the justice files also...

First of all, what breeder who has produced a paradox animal had the equipment to monitor the gestation to see this happen. Second it's lik eyou said you heard it making it hearsay.. Third, it doesn't work like that even in simple terms

I talked to a boa breeder at a Hamburg show about 4 months ago, he was the vendor behind me. He told me on a sonagram you can see two animals in the embryo, but as they developed there ended up only being one visible. He produced an Albino paradoxed col r/t that clutch. I also beleive that maybe Bob clark condoned this theory. I know of many breeders that also give light to the thoguht of in hapining.

Were are these pictures? Who was the breeder? There are plenty of people that say things but I'd like to see actual proof...

I saw the animal he produced and took his word. Im not saying this is a proven situation, im just saying i beleive its possible. Hatching a super tiger from tiger to normal breeding would seem impossible but you say you hatched 2 in 2 seperate years. Where are the pics? Im not saying it is impossible in your situation either, just curious. The above posts say it could be possible in humans, so why not reptiles?

I agree with Corey. I beleive Kevin has tried that theory with no sucsess. I also know of people that have ran through a pastel male and a spider male to numerous females never once has a bumblee bee popped out . Also your saying that all thoughs who breed a spider to some females and then run throguh a ghost to just make sure the females are gravid are possibly producing spiders het for ghost? Or you could breed 2 100% het alb males to a female and produce an albino. I dont see it happening. Maybe a 1 and 1 million shot b genetics can be unexplanable sometimes (like te spotnose) but its never something that could prove to work in more cases then none.And if it were possible the Ball trade would be doomed, so if you prove if anyone proves it... dont say anything...

prohibits the binding and penetration of other sperm. Once a sperm binds to an egg, a reaction takes place in the egg which "seals" the egg off from other sperm binding. Therefore, only one sperm can penetrate and fertilize as a rule. There may be an exception, but I believe Cory is right when he says that only a diploid set of chromosomes would yeild a proper embryo. I don't claim to be a repro biologist, but I seem to remember this from my graduate work.
Justin J
AAR

If it can happen in birds it has to be able to happen in reptiles...

We found out that two males can father a single offspring, The offspring would most likley exhibit both traits being half one and hal the other. Most likley you would never get a the combo of the two genes.. Paradoxing might be Mosaicing... I said might... There is a lot more that needs to be done on this subject with reptiles.....

some might say that single offspring is actually two offspring "condensed" into one....