Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Amazing how many "CBB" baby V. melinus have popped up all over the classifieds ever since they appeared on the Xtreme Reptiles wholesale list as such. Glad to see so many brokers have done their research so as not to lead anyone astray.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

There goes the neighborhood!

Those brokers are no different then almost all here. People here think homework is posting and asking someone else something.

The Brokers are going on the word of the person they got the monitors from, that the monitors are CBB. And the importer is taking the exporters word, they are CBB, the CITES people are taking the word(money, bribe) of the exporters, etc. I get the feeling no one has done any homework.

That is not so much different as to much of what is said here. Who actually has done the homework? Cheers

...but a truth nonetheless. Thank you for your input, Frank.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

And everyone on here can not believe they are bred in large numbers because some breeders believe it is not true based on opinion. Understandable with many importers/exporters going to jail in the last 10 years...that just makes me believe they are cracking down on illegal trade and not accepting bribes.
If it is possible to farm raise Green Iguanas at $2ea. cost why is it so hard to believe captive bred overseas Quince Monitors at $100ea cost in better facilities?

Basically we all have our opinion and most of the time for good reason. So far my prodding at this subject has not got me any proof yet from anyone. Obviously it is hard for the ones that feel they are not captive bred to show any proof so I don't blame them for only being able to supply us with opinion, but that is all it is, nothing less, nothing more.

By the way, I am not here to prove anyone wrong or right. I just want to make sure if people on this forum are going to say something is not true, to be prepared to be asked why and give a good reason for your beliefs. I was attacked as being dishonest and this made me look like a liar to the buyer of my Quince Monitor and others. I was as honest as the information I was given. This made me feel obligated to getting to the bottom of this subject as truly I do care and this will be an unfinished subject for me until I find some facts.
Shane

How can you sit here and demand that people disprove something that hasn't even been proven to occur in the first place?????

How is that even possible, much less make any sense at all??? Again, unparalelled.....
-----
Treemonitors.com

I had mentioned for you to ask them, the people saying they are captive bred and born, for some pics of breeding, laying, eggs hatching (not hatchlings like someone else mentioned), and you said you were going to.

So what did they have to say about showing those pics?

It seems this subjects dicussion is past over, but you still seem to want to bring it up.

Your best bet, is to not say anything more, just wait till you get the info you need, and come back and show your results either way. If you come with the pics of them hatching, then you will obviously have proved your point and proven your suppliers to be truthful. If your suppliers are unwilling, don't have, or just admit there were no pics or captive breeding, then let us know this also.

Seems really easy. If you trust your suppliers at all or if they have any amount of honesty in them, they will let you know the truth. Mabey threaten to stop doing business if they aren't truthful.

-Jeff

You have to understand the volume these people are dealing with. It is hard to sometimes get a picture of the animal you are buying let alone a life history photo album. With the consumer so demanding on price and some dealers selling so low just to get into the business. If you are asking for more money like for example a breeder, you have to show pictures and have great information to make your top dollar sale. You can not do this as an importer or dealing with a farm in Indonesia. I buy granite from importers all the time and they are the same way, as they have no time and very slim profit margins to waist time. The small granite/marble dealers do this but they mark up 200% and the consumer pays for this customer service.
I still am trying to get proof for sure, but those that came at me with big words I still ask them to show their proof if they can make the statements they have with such little respect.

We are talking about animals. When i was importing I had no problems getting pictures of the animals I was inquiring about. I even recieved pictures of babies and them hatching. I recently spoke with an exporter and recieved pictures I requested, even though I no longer import and he is well aware of this.

The thing is we made no claims you are making claims, until you can show proof then how is anyone to believe you? Just cause you say it is so? haha or somehow you want us to believe it is impossible to obtain proof? I say shush until you get proof, until then your only digging deeper.

You want proof something does not exist how does one do that?? Proving it exists is much easier and until the proof is shown then it is simply unproven. Hence the use of the mythical unicorn.

It is funny how we can all move on without this yet your stuck on it. Seems to me it is your problem to solve not ours. If I were you I would simply be enjoying the monitors you have. Will it change the way you feel about them??

Good luck with your search

No one is asking them to take 100 photos.
I don't care how busy a person is. It takes 5 minutes to take pics upload and press send. I'm sure they're not busy 24/7.
I used to see alot of ads stating cb this cb that. I would ask for pics of mating, eggs, hatching something as proof. The few times I got a reply back I mis understood they meant captive born.

Personally I could care less as I work with chameleons and dart frogs. I do enjoy your posts. A thread will die and then you bring up the subject again and then take this stance your being attacked.

Why not get your proof as your making the claim then come back and bring up the topic for the third time. When you take someone to court you have to prove it not the other party.
If you know you can't get proof from your suppliers, wholesellers, Importers, breeders, then breed your own and come back with pics and place your ads.
You seem determined to prove this forum wrong. Then get proof and prove it. Then you can tell the world to kiss your, well you know.
Again I do enjoy your posts as it gives me a laugh (seriously) and takes the seriousness of this forum away.

Exactly! your words "When you take someone to court you have to prove it not the other party." I was the person who was called a liar, so prove it. I have the right to defend my beliefs on here right, just like you have the right to kiss the people where the sun don’t shine to get dibs on their captive bred monitors.

And I did not bring this up, someone came on the thread before me saying that the brokers lied about exactly what I was accused of. A lot of people feel the same way I do but are in a position to not get involved with this debate online, but will tell you to your face if you ask them.

And funny you say that as I am having fun with this too. I do like to see the "know it alls" get worked up on here so yes I am sticking up for my claims but also having fun. I know a lot of breeders telling me to leave those loosers on the forum alone but they don’t understand these loosers tell all the newbies and non regulars wrong information. Then people like you come riding in on your pink unicorn trying to jab me to prove you are part of the team.

Have probably never even got roaches to bred lt alone any reptiles.
Its funny that the people you refer to as lieing and insulting others here are some of the individuals who actually do or have bred monitors in captivity sucessfully. I can find many many claims of CB monitors all over the industry, but very very few real instances, belive its easy to find out. Those who say they dont have time to get pictures, or produce too many to get proof, those are importers, those are the brokers of wild caught inexpensive monitors, period. These are the people who get defensive, attack those who ask for proof, insult them, threaten them, or make excuses. It is not those who ask for proof who are doing the attacking, or threatening, or insulting, its the brokers of WC animals who claim CB or CBB who do that.
Try for yourself, no matter how nicely you ask in emails, either they dont respond back, lie to you, or make excuses, but the other common responce is to threate you for asking.
Anyone who has ever sucessfully bred monitors has proof, dont believe the hype.

I would think, that if they are breeding in the numbers that they are, and are truely captive bred and born, that they would deffinatly take some pics of the babies hatching. All they would have to do is take a couple pics just one time, and use them for all of the sales they make (hundreds). You know that if they are selling them as captive bred and born, there has to be a lot of folks asking them that exact same question. It would be a huge benefit to their business, to just take a couple pics, just one time, durring the hatching of all these monitors. It just doesn't make any since at all not to. I mean, a couple pics, a couple bucks at most, for thousands and thousands of dollars worth of sales??

Either these people are extremely, extremely stupid, too stupid to ever hatch a monitor, or they are lying, end of story.

I did ask someone importing and/or broker (not the one my Quince came from) and they felt that they sell all of them with no problem and have hundreds of other species to be concerened about so no time to make people, the complainers happy especially considering this need for pictures is drummed up by competetors asking for this information.
Believe me I would love to get picture proof as well...but the only proof I have is in the examples I shared with you already.

Your asking the middle man (importer/brokers). Why not ask the exporters? They are the ones supposedly producing them, not the importers who bring them in.

That's very comical. This mentalility can be equated to the same lame excuse that a certain broker in Kansas City (who just so happens to be selling "CBB" V. melinus in the classifieds here) gives for not providing individual pictures of the animals they sell (you can view threads about them on another well-known site). They also admittedly do not keep most of the animals they offer for sale on hand, opting instead to have them drop-shipped to the customer directly from the importer. I do wonder...

The "I'll continue to cheat my customers because it is profitable" rationalization is a crying shame.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

It is not cheating the customer it is staying in business. I am sure these people work harder in one day than you do in a week. When you have time to go take your pictures, the customer is paying for that. So you market the spendy high maintenance customers and the importers/brokers will continue to market to the bulk buyers with slim profit margins. They work hard to give us large amounts of reptiles for a fare price and all you can do is cry about it. Not all of them are illegal so get over your past experiences.
See Hazpats post for a good example on why you breeders don’t even supply pics or get back to requests.

Well, I guess you've got me... actually maintaining my animals in conditions conducive to future breeding instead of having them drop-shipped from the importers (in which case I would have to do no maintenence, care, or medical treatment on them whatsover) isn't hard work at all.

What a smart cookie you have shown yourself to be.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

By the way, you ironically attest that many you dub as "breeders" live on this forum day-in and day-out, and yet you are without fail the quickest to reply and account for the most replies on this subject.

"By the way, you ironically attest that many you dub as "breeders" live on this forum day-in and day-out, and yet you are without fail the quickest to reply and account for the most replies on this subject."

I usually don't chat in this section as I work with geckos normally. I was informed by a friend that one of my buyers was being insulted for buying this monitor and later insulted me when I came to find out why he was insulting her. This grew into a can of worms with all of the "know it alls" on here.
If it was not for the insults or opinions put out there like they where fact, I would have gone far away from this forum a long time ago.
-Shane

...something to contemplate, Shane.

If the primary concern of the seller does not first lie with well-being of the animal before anything, be it bottom-line, general business, income, output, inventory, and, yes, even customer service, then the person in question should not be in the animal business.

Do you honestly believe that average broker will often sit and ponder exactly what became of that $1.50 Green Iguana he/she sold from a lot of 500 that likely ended up in the hands of a very inexperienced first-time reptile owners? Is the "staying in business" callousness a substitute for personal responsibility?

(The questions posed are entirely rhetorical, by the way as we all know full-well the honest answers.)

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

They work within the law when it comes to that and they have to stay competitive with the competition to stay in business. Your likely idea of a morally right wholesaler most likely would go out of business in a short time. The only thing that would change it are laws that affect all of them. Unfortunately there is little market for lizards that are imported VIP as the price would be so much more.
-Shane

Shane,

Not once did I mention legality or even moral culpability on the part of importers/wholesalers (except for, possibly, their inadvertent or purposeful misadvertisement). I agree with you on the notion that, at this time, importing is a necessary evil. I do not take issue with this. My disdain lies solely with the brokers for a myriad of reasons (most of which pertain to consistent misrepresentation, disregard for animal life, and poor customer service).

Consequentially, this topic of broker eithics as it concerns you and me will only lead to redundancy, as you will always be an apologist and I will remain an adversary. Your diversion techniques are charming, though... to say the least.

Have a nice day.

Jennifer Guerra
Jungle Gems Exotics
www.JungleGemsExotics.com

My beliefs are a lot closer to yours, but not portrayed very well on this forum or the format here. I think what you are doing is outstanding and you have a way of presenting your beliefs here very well.
I push the buttons of some people on here because I feel if they are going to point fingers and call people liars, they should be accountable for what they say and make it obvious they are opinions and not fact.
I like to go into a situation even if I have my own opinions to place myself in the shoes of others. I cant say someone is wrong unless I can understand why they do the things they do, then I can come up with other choices for them in a debate. When people on this forum or anywhere speak out ignorantly about another it forces me to take sides as a way to mirror to the ignorant(I am not saying you are) person what they failed to look into before ranting on something they know nothing about.
So based on this, sometimes I might look like I am taking sides but I am just trying to make the conversation more honest and validated. Or at least this is the idea, I am learning something new every conversation I have on here.
-Shane

When a wholesaler buys imported animals they get lots, not just a bunch but most times hundreds, why, its wholesaling, in fact a recent example is Algerian uros sold last summer to businesses at the rate of 2000-6000 a piece to sell in petstores and on the net (notice all of the Algerians, Moroccans, etc they are all imported Algerians). Wholesalers buy lots of even domestic WC animals example chuckwallas, 1000-3000 at a time. Notice that as pointed out by someone else the quince monitors called CB just as other species sold by importers and wholesalers show up in large groups of many thousand WC imports.
There is one captive breeding facility that deals with monitors in Asian that I know of period, they breed water monitors, I believe for the skin trade and for food, none for the pet trade.
You posted what you were told by the broker you dealt with, he said either what he wanted you to hear, or what he was told by another person they bought them from, either way they are not captive bred, and never have been imported from farms in their home countries.
Those animals are captured in traps by locals, captured by kids or women, bagged up in burlap bags either eaten, sold to be eaten, or sold to those who pay good money to export them for the pet trade. These locals know when they hatch, they spent their life living off of the land, they know these things, so they can find you hatchlings at hatching time easily.
Your problem is that you point the finger at others, insult, accuse others of doing what you are doing then deny it, still blaming someone else.
Believe me we have not lied to you, when I said that I questioned over 100 claims of CB or CBB adds, I was amazed at the responces I got back. I simply asked in this manner in email..
"Hello, I am interested in your (fill in the blank, monitor/monitors) for sale. I would like to know for sure if these animals are 100% captive bred and born, I will not purchase, nor am I interested in any imports. Two requests of you, one is to speak on the telephone as I do not do business with anyone who cannot speak to me legit, and next I would like to see proof of those (fill in the blank)either adults mating, eggs being layed, eggs hatching, or if they are from a breeder, I want the name and contact info of the breeder to verify.
I know from years of experience that every breeder of any reptile I have ever dealt with can and very willingly offers multiple pictures and in many cases dried egg shells without even asking for them. I am not doubting the status of your animals, but will not do business nor will I suggest others to do business with someone who cannot be honest.
Thank you for your time, I hope this can be a pleasant business experience for both of us, hope to hear from you soon."

Shawn.
I did get a very very few legit sources from hundreds of these emails sent, I recieve a shockingly high number of threats which some were reported to the proper authorities and to their internet provider. I recieved most claiming that they didn thave any proof, that "noone who breeds reptiles takes pictures of these things, after all look at all of those CB monitors in these classifieds for sale", "I dont have any pictures because my camera doesnt work", and one that is a big importer in Florida showed me pictures he copied from Frank Retes, they were pics of his house and outdoor cages with the desert in plain view, he said "these are pics of my savannah cages that I breed them in", I sent the original photos with the "goannaranch" watermark on them yet, asked him why he made these claims, and told him I would tell anyone in email who ever asked me, or in person, on the telephone who this was, but I wont post this info on the forum, against the TOS. I recieved many responcces of "oops that was atypo, I meant WC", or "oh my, I typed CB, I meant imported" then the adds disappear. Also these people change or add CB, CBB to their adds when they see a few adds with real CB or CBB monitor actually appear, also their prices go up to, or close to the real thing.
These are not honest people, what so ever. You jump all othe real breeders, and believe claims from importers. Its your choice to do so, but for what, your not proving anything, in fact youve offered no evidence at all just opinions about them being CB.
Have a nice day

"Hello, I am interested in your (fill in the blank, monitor/monitors) for sale. I would like to know for sure if these animals are 100% captive bred and born, I will not purchase, nor am I interested in any imports. Two requests of you, one is to speak on the telephone as I do not do business with anyone who cannot speak to me legit, and next I would like to see proof of those (fill in the blank)either adults mating, eggs being layed, eggs hatching, or if they are from a breeder, I want the name and contact info of the breeder to verify.
I know from years of experience that every breeder of any reptile I have ever dealt with can and very willingly offers multiple pictures and in many cases dried egg shells without even asking for them. I am not doubting the status of your animals, but will not do business nor will I suggest others to do business with someone who cannot be honest.
Thank you for your time, I hope this can be a pleasant business experience for both of us, hope to hear from you soon."

If I recieved this from you, even if running a completely ligit company I would question your motives. You stated you turned some of these people into proper authorities? I am curious how you antagonized them to threaten you/Remind me to never do any business with you!
-Shane

Everything, as well add to whats there for your own arguements, because you have no merit without claiming someone is doing what they arent.

"Those that you claimed threatened you or have lied I can not deny happening as it is possible. Any one that even took the time to respond to your obvious trap of a request would be out of their mind so deserve to have problems with you. Funny you are attacking some of the people that have made it possible for you to have the reptiles you have now in such an untactful way."

Ive never lied to you, yes they several dealers of inexpensive WC imports have treatened me, and some for just asking this.

Hello, Im interested in a CBB (fill in the blank), Im am not interested in any wild caught animals what so ever. Can you show me pictures or proof of those (fill in the blank) being CBB?

Oh, by the way, now Im being accused by you of trapping liars by asking for proof, and yes I have bought from a few dealers that could prove their claims, and were very very happy to do so without hesitation.
So, how are any of the people selling WC animals (this is too funny, now Im attacking them, LOL) who I asked for proof of their claimed CBB monitors responsible for any animal I have, I want to see your answer to this.
I have one wild caught animal in my entire collection, period, it was given to me. It is a male BT that was sold to a friend by an importer for next to nothing at a reptile show we attended, he gave it to me for $20 off of a large debt of money he owes. Such an untactful way, LOL, this another one, I asked in a plain straightforward, manner exactly what I was looking for with no bullcrap being passed off in a very nice way.

"Instead of going about this constructively you are making waves and creating bridges in the reptile community by doing your research so ignorantly. If anyone in the proper authorities where legitimately looking into this, you sure have gave them all a red flag for some real research."

This one is funny, are you delusional?
How is what I did as a consumer by asking for proof of an available animal being CBB because I dont want any WC crap causing anyone legit any problems? If Im buying a monitor and its claimed to be CBB, or a snake, it will be CBB, I will except no less. If someone claims it they better be able to back it up or call them what they are in their respective adds. Im sure most internet monitor purchases by the end keeper are preferred to be CBB, so if any business who is selling WC crap is offended, they can go to heck, if they sell WC as CBB they dont need to be in business, its called false advertising, by the way the better business bureau likes to know these things to.

"If I recieved this from you, even if running a completely ligit company I would question your motives. You stated you turned some of these people into proper authorities? I am curious how you antagonized them to threaten you/Remind me to never do any business with you!
-Shane"

Oh by the way for the 10th time Ive aswered this, I asked them if the animal available was CBB or WC, if it is not CBB Im not interested, if they are selling it as CBB I need proof or no sale occurs. This is all it took, in fact I recieved multiple threatening emails from a few dealers by asking this plain and simple, in one email to them only. I also saved those threatening emails, my email, their response, if I sent any response back, and any future emails from them in a file.
Anyone who threatened me was reported to the website, their internet provider, and to the proper authorities, threat by communication is taken very seriously on the internet. As long as you do nothing illegal as far as business, or as long as you dont threaten someone there is no problem.
What red flag would any real investigation need into anything unless they are doing something very illegal?
Those who use illegal or imoral methods in selling are the only ones causing waves among this industry.
Any legit business in this industry would not threaten you, lie to you, and no excuses would be needed or given. You are defending those who are dishonest and use false advertising to sell faster or at higher prices. I wouldnt call a $20-$40 imported monitor (a more expensive wholesale monitor if you know anything about wholesale prices on imports) being sold for $150-$300 as a CBB monitor, a small profit margin by the way, thats funny to, get the facts straight.
Have a nice day, no matter how hard you try to add something to what I said, I havent insulted you, or any legit business, or caused any legit business to be investigated or prosecuted.
I wish everyone making internet purchases was more savy about what to look for and ask for before buying when it comes to buying live animals, most of the dishonest sellers would go out of business if customers were this way.
Its called "OUR RIGHT AS CONSUMERS to get what is claimed and not get ripped off.
Im done with this conversation, and you for at least now. If your so upset at those who make sense and are trying to get this industry to be more honest and legit, and you want to leave this forum for good and go back to the gecko forums, by all means, no one is stopping you, thats your choice, no one here is telling you to stay.

Shvar-“I wouldn’t call a $20-$40 imported monitor (a more expensive wholesale monitor if you know anything about wholesale prices on imports) being sold for $150-$300 as a CBB monitor, a small profit margin by the way, that’s funny to, get the facts straight.”

Prices on peach-throats and blue tails go from $60-125(for wc baby/small) from the exporters in Indonesia, without shipping costs or any of the many costs to get them to the u.s even included into this price. Then chances are the importer acting as wholesaler sells to a dealer/retail store. Also there is a good chance some of these will die or have defects that reduce price. I have seen some medium/large doreanus for as low as $65 and jobiensis at $50 but never as low as the “$20-$40” you claimed. Maybe some native is paid that much to go catch them, but remember these guys can make $5 for a full days worth of work.
But you have to remember these prices are not including a lot of the cost involved, these are just the list price. This would be like you thinking to get your black throat monitor all you need is $20. I am sure it cost you 5 times that by the time you had him set up.
Also the red flag part, I was referring to the bad dealers know to be careful now. You have made them put their guard up so if you wanted them in trouble, you messed that up. At the same time you have caused the good dealers to be upset for no reason. Here you go, I have got my facts strait, now you go get your mind strait.
Shane

Ive recently seen blue tails for $45-$85 on a list (in the last few months). Blackthroats, if I remember right they were between $20-$30 wholesale, in lots of 10 Im sure you could get them for $10-$15 each. My favorite one is the famous bosc monitor, from an exporter they cost .50 each (and hes making a profit), imagine what they sell for to the end keepers in comparison.
As far as my only WC monitor, I accepted him after close examination and a lengthy check of his reactions, and he was very cold at the time. I decided on him because Id rather accept him and not have someone who has no clue what they are doing, someone who has little experience with monitors get him in his shape, someone who has preconceptions that this creature will become friendly, or someone who will give up on him because he wont be friendly, or someone who will give up let him starve or die because they lost interest because hes not cuddly or because they are too young for the responsibility.
As far as putting someone on guard, I could care less, if your doing something wrong or crooked then beware you will get caught somewhere along the lines, if your not doing something wrong theres no reason to be paranoid. Anyone who sells WC animals as CB or CBB is false advertising, that is illegal, it can be proven, but will the average person go to that extent to find out. If someone threatens you in an email for asking for proof of available animals they sell being CBB, or by any means of communication for whatever reason they need to learn that what they did was wrong, therefore setting an example by having them turned in for it, it sends a message to others to not do the same, just like those who go after the crooked dealers who rip them off by using the legal system, it makes our hobby and this business a better place by scaring off the crooks.
Another one to think about, I gave you the example of someone sending you an eggshell, recently it was mentioned several times about inexpensive DNA testing for determining sex, it would be just as cheap and easy to have a dried eggshell and the lizard tested after they show up for comparison to make sure it came from that species, instead of say someone sending you a dried snake egg to convince you that your monitor is CBB. Something for others to consider. Of course alot of this trouble could be bipassed if the pictures of the animals hatching, adult pairs together, even some mating, etc can be provided, its not in any way too difficult or too time consuming, anyone who tells you otherwise is lieing, captive monitors can be time consuming so wheres the extra effort to get pictures?.

Also I would like to say your comparison of 6,000 Uromastyx or 3,000 chuckwallas are a far cry from the small numbers of Mangrove Complex coming out of Indonesia. V. doreanus have a quota of 500 (live only) this year. V. jobiensis 300 (live only). The Quince monitor is obviously imported in less numbers so I would not place these species high on the exploited list like some of these others. You want real numbers, Mali Uros are in the tens of thousands. Once again these are the laws of the country and/or trade control organizations. This species will most likely be reduced to almost nothing if this continues. They use bulldozers to move rocks around at collecting sites! But this is one technique to collect, and no country has the same process. They all are different. A wholesaler has no control over this, he only has control over buying what he needs to get the best price so he can turn over a profit.

Those that you claimed threatened you or have lied I can not deny happening as it is possible. Any one that even took the time to respond to your obvious trap of a request would be out of their mind so deserve to have problems with you. Funny you are attacking some of the people that have made it possible for you to have the reptiles you have now in such an untactful way.

Instead of going about this constructively you are making waves and creating bridges in the reptile community by doing your research so ignorantly. If anyone in the proper authorities where legitimately looking into this, you sure have gave them all a red flag for some real research.