Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I took some out door pics today while cleaning.

Here is the albino male that was produced from breeding het Caramel x het Caramel (1 albino out of 5 eggs)back in 2002. I did the same breeding this year and no albinos (or Caramels) out of 6 eggs.

My 2002 Pied female. She is getting big!

Red Axanthic female. This is another one that I produced in 2002.

Enjoy the pics.
Corey

Thanks for sharing, some beauties there!

T het x T het (Caramel) can't produce a T- albino.
are they double hets, T and T- ????
or are they just T- albino hets ????
TomChambers

np/

for some reason the plus signs dont go through??????

Tom, NERD's caramel albino line has T- blood in them too. I have a male T albino from NERD that was born in the same clutch as a T- albino. The clutch was produced from NERD's original T bred to his daughter.

I meant I have a T male from NERD that had a T- in the same clutch.

The plus sign does not show up in my post, whats that all about?

ok, so their double hets then. Thats nice!!!
TomChambers

pied pattern is nice......the stripes connecting on the neck....sweet..........that big ole' cross on it's shoulders......(Celtic?)...LOL...........the amount of white ...nice.........

.........good looking albino too.......sux none this year......sux no caramels either.........caramel hets = amelanistic........odd recessive gene....LOL....sorry.........

.........JYReptiles.............

explain how you got an amel. from het-xanthic X het-xanthic OR are they double-het amel/xanthic.

Whats up with that?

Nothing wrong with an albino but they are less expensive than an xanthic. I think I would be upset. How can you sell the babies without misrepresenting them? You selling them as 66% het albino?Just wondering. Lot of work and money to only get one albino.
Nice collection of animals.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

First off, we can’t be sure the albino he produced isn’t also caramel/xanthic. I would expect albino (t-) to completely cover caramel. Of course there are several other possibilities of how the two will interact and we will not know for sure until an albino caramel is proven through breeding. There could be some wild interaction like the two mutations being alleles of each other and a double het looking like a caramel. How where the two mutations first combined? This could be a fun puzzle to unravel.

Even if that one albino isn’t also a caramel there is still a 4.2% chance of producing no caramels from 11 babies from breeding het X het without any mix-ups, sperm retention, or parthenogenesis at either NERD or Corey’s to blame. He has proven both are het albino and he only got one of those in 11, so why not one less if they are both het caramel also. Hopefully next year he’ll get several of each out of them.

I purchased 1.1 het xanthic from SK. If I produced an albino I would be very very upset! I want a caramel - one of my favorites!!!!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

The males I'll sell into the pet trade as normals. The females I'll keep and add them to my collection of 15 possible het females. I hope to have the het pair produce again next year along with some of the possilbe het females......Then we'll go from their on the outcome.

Corey

That is what I call being over reasonable. More than I!
Keep us updated!
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Let me start out by saying that this is just wild speculation. I'm just putting forth a hypothesis with very little facts. Hopefully someone out there has the facts to quickly support or refute it (probably refute) but I just came up with this idea and want to run it by the community.

I'm NOT trying to slam any breeders or any morphs. This is just genetic speculation, nothing more.

Ok, here is the THEORY:

What if, caramel (aka xanthic, or T positive albino) and albino (aka T- albino) are different morph alleles of the same gene?

We don't really have to know how this could be as we could probably never be sure anyway but just for the purpose of this speculation lets say that albino removes or completely disables a gene critical to producing melanin and caramel just partially disables the same gene such that it only produces a faint shadow of dark pigment.

If the two mutations are alleles of each other (different mutations of the same gene) then if you breed a caramel to an albino you will not get any normals. This is because neither parent has a normal copy of that gene to give the offspring.

What would the double het caramel and albino look like? It could look like either parent, part way in-between, or something new. However, if we go with the idea that albino might be completely removing or disabling the gene, and caramel might just partially disable it, you might expect the double het to look like a caramel. If it's albino gene is a lack of function, them perhaps it's one caramel gene will function enough to make it look caramel (maybe a particularly light one, maybe no different than any other caramel).

If it happens to work out that caramel and albino are alleles of each other, then it would be impossible for an animal to have more than two copies of the genes for both mutations and normal combined. You could not have a homozygous caramel that was also het for albino. Any imported animal suspected to be homozygous caramel and also heterozygous albino would have to be only het caramel and het albino. Although it would be perfectly natural to look at such an animal and assume it was homozygous caramel (if that is what it looked like) and it would even produce all caramels when breed to a homozygous caramel (if caramel is dominant over albino per this theory) so of course anyone would reasonably think it was homozygous caramel.

The catch would be further down the road, particularly when it was bred to normals to produce 100% het caramels. Since this theoretical import double het male only has one caramel allele and one albino allele of this single gene only half of it's offspring would be het caramel and the other half would be het albino.

So, the outcome IF this theory where acurate would be that:

While both caramel and albino are recessive to normal, caramel is dominant over albino.

Any albino could not even be het caramel.

Any caramel looking animal could turn out to be only het caramel and het albino. The test would be to breed it to an albino and see if it produces only a large number of caramels (indicating that it is homozygous caramel) or a mix of caramels and albinos (indicating that it is a double het).

So, does anyone have any breeding results to prove of disprove this theory? Anyone ever breed a caramel to an albino?