Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I see that this has become an issue. I for one have no idea if a true leucistic black rat snake as ever been found. What I have argued for is skepticism about any claim of something out of the ordinary being found. This is not to say that any claimant is being dishonest, but what can and should be questioned is the true origin of the animal that was found. Just because one finds an animal in the "wild", that does not make it a pure breed animal from that location. It could be an animal that was transported and released by some unknown human.

More to the point is that in the case of leucistic E. obsoleta, they all look the same. The five subspecies of obsoleta differ only in color and pattern. If the snake is leucistic, it has no pigment producing skin cells so subspecies cannot be determined by visual examination. Leucistic Texas Rats have been common in the snake trade for some time now. It is because of this fact that one has to very skeptical of all reports of something this rare being a "true" find that had purely natural origins. It is an informal fallacy of logic (Cum hoc ergo propter hoc) to conclude such with true certainty.

I would rather buy a lucistic Texas rat that I know is pure in leau of a Black rat lucy that is questionable even if it is the Black Rat I am after. I know they are interchangeable in the technical sense but it is nice to buy from people that have taken the time to keep track of locality. Lets face it there is a lot of geographic variation within the Black Rat anyway.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I keep Black Rats from as far north as New York and as far south as N.C. I like Black Rats that show very little pattern. In eastern Virginia, that is how our obsoleti look.

Yes, our black rats in Kansas are jet black also. I did catch one that was redish brown as an adult with solid red skin between the scales. I catch about 50 or so in an average season around here.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

It's not like we're keeping an endangered species from going extinct. We are breeding pets, nothing more. We are cultivating a mutant that is incapable to survive in nature, not under any circumstances. And they're all solid white anyway, regardless of their pedigree. So what's the point in breeding 'pure' leucistic Texas Rats or Black Rats?

When it comes to leucistic ratsnakes, I'd rather have a good healthy mutt than one of these highly inbred 'pure' strains, with all the bug eyes and vertebral deformities that go along with inbreeding depression. Think about that for a change.

I couldn't agree more. Trying to maintain "pure locality" strains of something like Leucistic rats (or any other captive line of snakes, IMHO) is a complete waste of time. Breed for robustness and health of babies.

Otherwise, any leucistic Texas rats not bred to snakes from Houston (where the original was caught, IIRC) would be mutts.

Of course, if you accept the taxonomy and systematic implications of Burbrink, these Black Rat x Texas Rat crosses could even be .....dare I say the word....hybrids!!!

If they are destined to live in aquaria and shoeboxes, it doesn't matter if you cross them with Budgies. They don't represent a real wild lineage of animals.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

If you accept Burbrink et al's division of Pantherophis obsoletus into three separate species, then many (if not most) captive Black Ratsnakes would be hybrids or triple hybrids.

Thank you for identifieng yourselves. I know who not to buy from now. It saves me a lot of trouble in finding reputable breeders. By the way corn snakes will breed with rat snakes if you all need some healthy morphs.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

In my book, crossbreeding unfit color morphs like albinos or leucistics is not a sin. I can see why someone would like to breed locale specific when it involves natural (normal) specimens, but when it comes to cultivars like the leucistic Texas Rat, I just don't get the point. So what if your leucistic Texas Ratsnakes are of a pure bloodline? Would you like to use them for a species reintroduction program? Do you really thing anyone gives a damn? And how could you possibly know for sure?

Like I said before, I got bored with leucistic ratsnakes and sold all of them. The only reason why I wanted to cross leucistic Texas Rats to leucistic Black Rats in the first place, is because I'd like to find out whether the morphs are compatible or not. The natural variants in my collection, like the North Carolina Greenish, the White Oak Grey, or the Banderas County Baird's, are (as far as I know) all pure animals and I intend to keep it that way. I also keep lots of mutants of several subspecies and yes, these I do mix all the time.

Mwahahahah!!! Mwahahahahah!!!

Regards,

Dr. Evil

My point is why call them anything other than Lucistic Rat Snake? Why call them Lucistic Black Rat since they are most likley not. And as far as keeping the Lucistic Texas Rat it will be hard to know what is what after a while. I have a good idea lets just go for generic snakes! White Snake! Black Snake!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

- Are you a Mata-troubadour or a Trouba-matador?? “ The Bobo” Peter Sellers movie – 1967

Is this a dark Texas Rat or a light Black Rat from Desoto County Louisiana?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

I've always maintained that the difference was almost subjective. I've found "Black Rats" in central AL that had very distinct orange undertones. I posted the pics of one and most people figured it was an escaped pet. That may have been OK as an idea but what about the others we eventually found - or ones like it from southern IN? Sometimes I think the answer may be as simple as generations of genetic drift as neighbors breed with neighbors. Personally, I think the distinctions between Black, Texas and Grey are often completely subjective. There are tan and brown Obsoleta in AL that some people call "AL Strain Grey Rats." What makes that more valid than calling them AL Strain Black Rats?" they clearly fit well into neither description. What would you call this WC central AL snake?

The bars on the neck suggest yellow cross to me....
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Do Yellow Rats occur in central AL? If so, I've never heard of one or seen a range map that included that area. That is part of my point. Genetic drift and color variations can undoubtedly account for a lot of morphology that makes clean ssp decisions almost impossible. Perhaps they wouldn't be meaningful anyway. Here is a very Grey Obsoleta from the same area that exhibits the same general neck patterns.

Here is one of the snakes that looked very similar to a Texas Rat snake. This too was caught in central AL.

Wow, Mark,
Two items:
1. I found a DOR just like that one in Western Mississippi
where it made more sense at the time.
2. Is this animal linked to the yellowish animals
found in Fayette or Marion Counties?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Fayette and Marion Counties are in the NW corner of the state. These are Montgomery County animals. I'd guess it's about a 3-hour drive SE of there. That said, after generations of breeding with neighbors, I think they probably are related. That yellower snake is lighter colored but similar to the look of some of the Rat Snakes in those areas.

I've seen Texas rats that dark in central Texas, and black rats lighter than that (some quite noticeably) from many areas where they are considered pure. Years ago a friend got a shipment of blacks in from Wisconsin, with most of them having just as much yellow as most Texas rats. They had much more pattern than the one in your photo.

The difference is the same as with any locality project, it is a representation of evolution and there is a history with a rare natural event. Not a duplicate but a representation, as close as can be made by humans.
A manmade hybrid snake is farther removed from the natural process, it doesn't matter that they are both white, it is about the history.
For some when the history is lost so is the fascination.It is only a matter of opinion which, if any, is better but that's the difference.

It makes quite abit of difference with this morph as if you bred a leucistic black ratsnake to a leucistic texas you would produce rusty crosses, no leucistics. And in my experience with intergrades most of them aren't as attractive as either of the original parents. I don't doubt for a second that the leucistic black ratsnakes are pure bred based on the fact that the genes controlling the mutation are incompatible despite the fact that they produce the same effect. One is a co dominant gene and the other simple recessive, if they were royals they may as well be pastel and albino, the gene is completely different and therefore it couldn't have been transfered to the black ratsnake from the texas ratsnake, admitedly it is possible for a leucistic black ratsnake to carry the recessive gene but had this been so it would have shown up in the breedings at some point.

Plus to produce leucistics from a pair of leucistic texas and blacks would take at least 6 years with crossing them once and then raising up the offspring to cross back. It is just quicker and easier to produce leucistics from either the texas lines or the black lines alone.

If such a cross has already been done, then that would actually prove that leucistic Black Rats were not created by breeding Black Rats to leucistic Texas Rats. I'd like to see some documentation on this however, as I never heard of this before.

Yes, most homemade crossbreeds really don't look that great, I agree with you on that. Don't mix up the word crossbreed with intergrade however. Intergrades occur in nature and can sometimes be quite beautiful, the North Carolina Greenish Rat is a fine example.

What you say about the time it takes to get a leucistic F2, is exactly the problem. Most breeders just want to make a quick buck, so they just breed brother to sister, and this has been going for dozens of generations. If you really like the leucistic Texas Ratsnake that much, then breed it to a normal Texas Ratsnake. Yes, outbreeding will take a lot more time to pay off, but in the long run it will be worth it. Inbreeding is a dead end street.

>>It makes quite abit of difference with this morph as if you bred a leucistic black ratsnake to a leucistic texas you would produce rusty crosses, no leucistics. And in my experience with intergrades most of them aren't as attractive as either of the original parents.

In your own words....ABOVE

If this was true why would it be almost impossible to tell the difference or to even know if there is "texas" in a leucistic black rat.

When the first leucistic rat was bred it and ALL of it's offspring were not bred from only snakes found at the same spot.
There is no "locality" left when it comes to leucistic Texas rat snakes. They are bred all over the country. Even the world, now
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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Leucistic Black Rat Snake – The undying thread from Hell - LOL

1. The Taxonomist in me says “leucism and is aberrant and unsuccessful in the animal’s survival in nature as to be pointless in binomial nomenclature.”
2. The ethical breeder in me says “I must know the history of a breed (Collie, Doberman, Manx, Arabian, Texas Rat Snake or Black Rat snake.”
3. The practical breeder in me says “I don’t care. Can it live in a sweater box?”
4. The unethical breeder in me says “I don’t care. Can I sell it for more if I call it something else?”
5. The field herper in me says “if I found a genuine, wild leucistic reptile of any genus I’d be ecstatic. It would be a life long dream.”
I would then shoot myself because no one would
believe me!
6. The armchair herpetologist in me says “would I still always smell of formalin all the time if I only pickled leucistic animals?”
7. The academic in me says “can I have my graduate students work on leucistic Rat Snakes, plagiarize their work, publish the result and be famous?”
8. The behaviorist in me says “I wonder why some leucistic Texas Rat Snakes and hypo Everglades are often docile. “
9. The Frankenstein geneticist in me says “I wonder if Black and Texas leucistic animals would breed and produce white sided, amelanistic, anethyristic, axanthic, piebald, hypo, hypers, and then can I cross them with a Jungle Corn?”
10. The Dad and Granddad in me says “Leucistic snakes are really great looking animals. I wonder if I should buy one for my grandson’s birthday.”
11. The redneck guy in me says “I just want a beer and see something nek’ed (Jeff Foxworthy)”
12. Finally the old guy in me says “Screw it. It’s still winter in my neck of the woods. I’m going fishing!”

Check out this discussion on this very same forum in 2001!

http://forum.kingsnake.com/rat/messages/3880.html

And muck it up even more with this:

http://www.ratsnakes.com/Eospiloides_leuc.html

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Regards, Bill McGighan