Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is the only forum I ever see this mentioned in so I figured I would ask you guys. What are the advantages of accreditation through AZA, ZOAA, etc. for our type of business? Is it worth jumping through the hoops for a small to mid size breeder? I understand the desire to model care after these groups guidlines but what makes going through the actual review process worth it? I work for a major museum so I understand some of it but even a large private collector wouldn't do an AMA review. Is this just a venomous thing, maybe a requirement to own them in some states? Just currious.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

This is actually a very good topic to talk about (my time is real short at the moment so I'd be happy to take this "off line". My facility has struggled with this very issue for the past 15 years. We originally wanted to become accredited through AZA, however, due to the many logistical hurdles we had to overcome, we were not in a position in our early stages. Over the years we just never felt a great need because our mission and approach is so very much different than most AZA facilities (not saying we are better but rather have a much different focus, we just take a more intimate approach between the public, the animals and the animal keeping staff....its all about hands on conservation education that we feel makes the greatest difference; and some AZA zoos are making great strides in this department and many of my colleagues are in this setting so I do respect AZA very much). I have maintained my individual AZA membership from my zookeeping days and feel that AZA is a very important organization who do wonderful things. There may come a day when we go back to the table and see if becoming accredited is in our best interests. The other accreditation institution that is getting recognized (Zoological Insitution of America) is one that we are currently pursuing. For us, accreditation has advantages with our insurance company so it may be a requirement in order for us to maintain our good relationship with them. There is also a perception that when you are "accredited" that somehow you are held in higher regard (that is more of a PR sort of motive). In the end, though, our operations will not significantly change nor will our mission.

For a small or medium sized breeder, I wouldn't see a big need to have your facility accredited, however, I do see great value in becoming an individual member of these organizations. You will have wonderful networking opportunities which can lead to many other avenues of benefits.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>This is the only forum I ever see this mentioned in so I figured I would ask you guys. What are the advantages of accreditation through AZA, ZOAA, etc. for our type of business? Is it worth jumping through the hoops for a small to mid size breeder? I understand the desire to model care after these groups guidlines but what makes going through the actual review process worth it? I work for a major museum so I understand some of it but even a large private collector wouldn't do an AMA review. Is this just a venomous thing, maybe a requirement to own them in some states? Just currious.
>>
>>Sean
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>> Heart Mountain Herps
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I agree with Rob on most this topic. For a small to medium sized breeder or private individual it does not probably have allot impact.

For larger institutions can have major impacts (but not always). It does a combination of things. The AZA has political pull in terms of with govt agencies, be it USFW, local state agencies, conservation organizations, etc...It is in theory a self regulated agency that strives for the highest standard of professionalism among zoological facilities. Of course, it has it's problems too like any big member organization.

From a reptile perspective, many of my fellow herp colleagues take issue with a number of AZA practices as they have traditionally been a mammal center organization. Such trends are changing for the better, I think.

As for Rob's comments "its all about hands on conservation education that we feel makes the greatest difference" - not sure I would agree, as each institution is very different and has very different educational messages and methods. The AZA does not really dictate the way one conducts its education programs.

Just my 2 cents...

-Ruston
Curator of Herpetology
Dallas Zoo

Oh yes, I can understand why it would have a major impact on a large 'public' zoo. Like I said I've worked for museums most of my life and at least in the way they operate, both being primarily non-profit educational institutions, zoo's and museums are very similar. I understand where it would be major help for loans, aquisitions and most important for your developement offices with fundraising and obtaining grants. I just wasn't sure if it would benefit a small to mid sized operation, sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. I read through AZA's guidlines and they just don't seem relevant at all, like you mentioned they are primarilly targeted at very large institutions that specialize in mamals. ZAOA at least recognizes that there are non-public facilities that specialize in breeding/propogation programs and not so much serving the public with exhibits. Are there any out there that are geared more towards our type of business. I guess maybe I've been institutionalized after so many years but the idea of some kind of accreditation/certifacation does have an appeal to me. I've really been tossing around the idea for about the last year. What prompted it was a guy that came to town and opened up a snake 'zoo', according to him he has the only zoo license in Wyoming. Personally I thought the guy was a little nuts for trying to do it here and I wasn't sure exactly how he was calling himself a zoo when I've got more specimens in my living room let alone the snake rooms. Anyway, the city council and those people practically fell all over themselve trying to kiss this guys butt because he was 'accredited' (although I'm not sure through who), I sure as hell have never got that treament from them lol. I didn't hold it against the guy and even offered to try to help him start up a breeding program basically to find out that I'm one of those evil people that capatilize on mutations (ex. I see no reason to take up the same space with a $5 snake vs. a $5,000 snake and I actually make a pretty decent second income off of my animals instead of solely relying on joe blow redneck to come in and look around to support me). A year later and I'm still here, guess who's not. It just kind of gets to me that a piece of paper did that much for him. This is getting kind of off subject though and turning into a rant so I'll stop now. Thanks for the input and if anyone else has any keep it coming.

Thanks
Sean
Associate Director of Photography
Buffalo Bill Historical Center

Owner - HMFIC
Heart Mountain Herps

(hey everyone else was putting their fancy titles in so I figured I would too lol) Thanks guys.
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Heart Mountain Herps

Hi Ruston, my comment really stems from my involvement as a keeper at an AZA institution, and, having been to many large AZA reptile houses in the past few years. For the most part, upon entering one of these facilities, is that you are basically on your own during your self guided tour. In most cases, there is very little interaction with the animal keeping staff much less the animals themselves and the visitor gets a sense of distance from the exhibits and animals that they are watching and observing. I have discussed this at great length with some fellow colleagues of these very same institutions who express a certain degree of frustration. When I started my own wildlife museum I wanted to give my facility a much better sense of intimacy when our guests arrived. My full time keepers, and myself included, try to greet everyone; spend time with them, answer their questions, take them around and spend time on the floor.....I realize that this just isn't always possible at large institutions like your's. That's really what I was trying to get at. But, I've heard nothing but rave reviews about your place and I can't wait to come down there sometime to see it.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest Parks & Recreation
Lake Forest, IL

>>I agree with Rob on most this topic. For a small to medium sized breeder or private individual it does not probably have allot impact.
>>
>>For larger institutions can have major impacts (but not always). It does a combination of things. The AZA has political pull in terms of with govt agencies, be it USFW, local state agencies, conservation organizations, etc...It is in theory a self regulated agency that strives for the highest standard of professionalism among zoological facilities. Of course, it has it's problems too like any big member organization.
>>
>>From a reptile perspective, many of my fellow herp colleagues take issue with a number of AZA practices as they have traditionally been a mammal center organization. Such trends are changing for the better, I think.
>>
>>As for Rob's comments "its all about hands on conservation education that we feel makes the greatest difference" - not sure I would agree, as each institution is very different and has very different educational messages and methods. The AZA does not really dictate the way one conducts its education programs.
>>
>>Just my 2 cents...
>>
>>-Ruston
>> Curator of Herpetology
>> Dallas Zoo
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I am a private breeder and educator. I see a lot of the states banning or making it difficult to keep and work with some of these animals. Fortunately I live in a state and county that currently does not regulate exotics or hots. I beleive in staying ahead of the regulations that may come this way eventually. I have a good working relationship with local Animal Control and Law Enforcement Agencies. I even teach a State Accredited Reptile Workshop. I have no problems with the rules and regulations put forth by the AZA in reguards to caging, protocals, and husbandry. I don't necessarly agree or can justify the costs associatted with them for a private individual or even a small time facilty. I have spent a lot of time and money on my collection which I believe is up to par with most Zoo collections and large breeders.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
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Conservation through Education

Hey Tim, That's more what I'm getting at. If there was an orginizational body that specialized more in that area. I too have no problem with their caging/husbandry requirements, in fact the other night was the first time I had really read both AZA's and ZAOA's guidlines and I meet or exceed their requirements in 99% of my stuff (I do have an ackie in a cage smaller than what they require for varanids but it more than meets their requirements that size lizard so I'm not sure if it would be in violation or not). I think most responsible/professional breeders and keepers probably do meet or exceed the requirements, neither one really seems geared towards our specific area that may give some ground when going up against some of the BS laws being passed that says 'hey I'm a professional and not some dumb kid with a cobra in his closet'.

Sean
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Heart Mountain Herps

..what you're trying to emulate is what Clyde Peeling has been doing for 40 years. It can be done and with AZA accreditation!

MCH

what cost? 10,000 a year, 5,000 for the inspection, full time vet on staff, and the list goes on. My vets office is 5 minutes away and she does house calls. My need for a vet is seldom since I am an experienced rehabber and am familiar with standard treatments and medications. I am a private breeding facility and perform public educational programs away from my facility. I bring my programs to the Schools, Animal Control Agencies, City & State Agencies, etc.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

I wasn't disputing what you do, I was simply pointing out to Rob, that there are small specialized zoos, that are AZA accredited that do the same thing Rob is aiming for. I mentioned Reptiland, simply because it is exactly that AND accredited. They don't pay a full time vet...they have a consulting vet. When I worked for them, I was never told that a vet had to be there 100% of the time. Is this a stipulation? I was never aware of it.

I agree many private collections are up the standards (and may even exceed them in many cases. Case and point, a few zoos here and there are adept at keeping bushmasters....However, there are several others that are downright LOUSY AT IT!).

While many of AZA's policies may not be all that great(Just how many ARUBA rattlesnakes have been released to date?) the underlying theme is that the care of animals is subject to peer review(inspections) and it does count for something. It doesn't just apply to zoos. Peer review in any profession/industry is a measure of the quality of the operation. It doesn't mean others can't live up to the same standards, BUT it does mean that a facility has or has not been subject to those standards. Until you're subject to them, it doesn't mean a thing in terms of professional recognition or standing.

MCH

I agree with you Matt. I have seen both public and private collections that were appalling.

I could be wrong, but I was recently informed about the vet status for a facilty.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Matt, we take a lot of pride in our facility, our programs, our mission and the direction we are going. Although places like Reptileland and Tad's place in S.D. are certainly incredible insititutions, our's is right up there with anyone...not that this is a competition; I absolutely DROOL when I see these other facilities and we are a close knit bunch who kick ideas around and are always willing to share our successes (and failures). Some of these are AZA and some are not. Cost is certainly a factor for some of the smaller facilities like mine but we typically do not spare any expense if it means doing it right; such as accreditation. Anyway, to get to the point, we would LOVE to be AZA accredited but at the time when we were giving it serious consideration, there were some heavy constraints at the time that would prevent us from being able to be considered; one of those was having a full time vet on the premises. If things have changed, I would like to know as I was not aware of any recent changes to the accreditation process. You hit it on the head, there is something to be said for peer reviewed processes and although AZA is far from perfect, it does provide a vehicle to ensure a high degree of quality in terms of how the animals are cared for (or, at least that is what should be happening). This is a great topic for discussion and I look forward to hearing what Tad or Clyde or Jim Harrison have to say.

>>I agree with you Matt. I have seen both public and private collections that were appalling.
>>
>>I could be wrong, but I was recently informed about the vet status for a facilty.
>>-----
>>Tim Cole
>>www.Designeratrox.com/
>>www.AustinReptileService.net
>>www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
>>Conservation through Education
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

My point was that it CAN be done, and regardless of size, there are some quality places out there.

MCH.

You are absolutely right about that....and hopefully, we CAN do it! See ya, Rob

>>My point was that it CAN be done, and regardless of size, there are some quality places out there.
>>
>>MCH.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Unless it has changed you are not required to have a full time vet. A number of smaller AZA inst have consulting vets nearby or those that come by twice a week, etc...

Similiar to antivenin, you are not required to have it on hand, but required to have access to it. Be it a local hospital across the street, a antivenin bank close by, etc...most folks just want to have it in their hands for safety!

-Ruston

Ruston, that is great to know. We have two excellent herp vets w/in a 10 minute drive of our facility who make routine stops here. Additionally, we keep our own supply of antivenin so perhaps we are closer than I thought in moving a step closer to accreditation. Thanks for the clarification.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Unless it has changed you are not required to have a full time vet. A number of smaller AZA inst have consulting vets nearby or those that come by twice a week, etc...
>>
>>Similiar to antivenin, you are not required to have it on hand, but required to have access to it. Be it a local hospital across the street, a antivenin bank close by, etc...most folks just want to have it in their hands for safety!
>>
>>-Ruston
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob

We do have a nice place & collection but it needs work. We are in a state of rebuilding the collection, staff, research program, etc...

I do hear great things about your facility and programs. I would like to make it for a tour some time.

-Ruston

If you are ever up in the Chicago area I would love to show you are facility. We have a pretty unique set up here; our herp museum/center is housed in a historic gentleman's farm that was built in 1917 so we had to do a lot of rehab/restoration that would make the historical folks happy while making sure it had all of the modern necessities in maintaining a world class collection of herps....its been a challenge but worth the efforts (we get some nice funding from the historical preservation folks). I look forward to coming to Dallas sometime to see your set up....my best ideas usually come from other places.

>>Rob
>>
>>We do have a nice place & collection but it needs work. We are in a state of rebuilding the collection, staff, research program, etc...
>>
>>I do hear great things about your facility and programs. I would like to make it for a tour some time.
>>
>>-Ruston
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL