Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, I went to the SATX reptile expo today. I perused around for almost two hours, not really looking for anything in particular, but I did focus on balls and boas. The selection was pretty sparse. I did however see in person some of the ball morphs that I had only previously seen online, namely xanthic, yellow belly, and the mojave. Something struck me as I looked at the mojave...why on earth would anyone pay $5000 for a snake that is exactly the same as a normal, except for a slight difference in color. In my opinion, the only balls that should be more expensive are the albino and piebald (out of the snakes I saw today.) I just dont get it...who cares if it has a little better color than a normal (pastel, mojave) or a lack there of (xanthic), no snake is worth thousands of dollars. It is the exact same thing as a $35 normal. Now I do agree that pieds and albinos should be priced higher because there is a drastic color and/or pattern difference. If someone can explain why they would pay $5000 for a mojave, that would be great. Oh, and I dont need a lesson in S&D...I understand economics. This is what baffles me...are there really normal people buying expensive balls out there? Or, does it go something like this: Joe Blow thinks he can make money selling balls, so he buys a $10,000 pair of mojaves from Big Boy Balls. Joe breeds them 2 years later, and realizes no one in their right mind would buy a $5000 mojave for a "pet." Luckily, John Doe decides he could make money breeding ball pythons, so he buys some mojaves from Joe Blow. And the cycle continues. Personally, I think its Big Boy Balls that keep the prices artificially high. I love it when Joe Blow sells for half of the "market value," and pisses off BBB...theres economics for you. I think the entire ball python morph market is ridiculous. Oh, and NO, I am not jealous. The only balls that interest me are normals and albinos. Peace.

You may have overlooked the fact tha mojos produce blue eyed lucys and crystal balls and that is just scratching the surface of thier potential.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

I thought that the reason that mohaves were popular is that when two are bred together, they stand an excellent chance of producing a leucistic (sp) snake. I may not have spelled the word correctly, but these snakes are completely white with blue eyes. That kind of snake would rival your albino and pied morphs.

I can understand wanting to own some of these unusually colored snakes. Like any other kind of collecting, part of the fun is having some of the unusual variants that have been produced. I still like the normals the most. Having a normal is like having a classic car that's been restored to perfect "factory" condition. That look is what's supposed to define the species. On the other hand, exploring the options can be fun as well.

A few months ago, I couldn't understand the appeal of pastels, but I've seen several that I find very attractive. I'm not yet ready to own another snake because I don't want to have to care for another snake. However, if I were going to purchase another ball python, I'd consider a pastel. If I do everything right, my snake will live 20 to 30 years. Spread over that time period and averaged with the cost of bedding, rats, hides, bowls, heat and humidity control, vet visits, and all of the other necessities of snake ownership, the difference between a $40 normal and a $750 pastel is not that great as long as I can really afford to have another snake and spend $750.

If the market is truly inflated as you suggest, I agree that prices will come crashing down someday. On the other hand, if they ever enact a tariff on importing more ball pythons, the prices of normals will rise somewhat. In a country where daily life is getting busier and busier, ball pythons will grow in popularity as a pet. If they become "mainstream," then demand for the morphs may become even greater. When Mr. and Mrs. Next Door are shopping for the suddenly popular ball python, they'll want something a little prettier, a little more unsual, and a little more expensive than what "The Joneses" bought. They'll pay the price to have a pastel or spider or bumblebee or whatever is a little "better" than the snake next door. (This is a truly depressing paragraph.)

The good news for us is that we'll be suddenly popular when Mr. and Mrs. Next Door need help getting $3000 "wrapped in scales" to eat a $2 rat. The owners who become too frustrated will then be willing to give these animals to anyone who can make them eat, and all of us will have morphs. (Okay, this paragraph isn't much better. I'll quit now.)

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

i agree, bill, it would be cool to have some different balls, especially the albino. i just dont believe that they are worth their prices. if the big boys would stop creating artificially higher prices, then more people could have morphs. its a matter of target market. the big boys dont (in general) sell to average joe, because joe cant afford their prices. the big boys sell to breeders, thus perpetuating the cycle.

Eventually they WILL all be in petstores for a hundred bucks apiece.Yet i still want one of each...hrmmm what to do,what to do.

It's all about supply and demand.As long as there is someone ahead of you that is offering a hundred dollars more than you are..Then that will be who it gets sold to.

Another way to look at is in the business sense itself.

A proper example would be any sort of company that caters to high end clientel,but they themselves(company owners)couldn't afford said product for themselves otherwise...if they weren't in the business(whichever it may be).
Which is usually how a business is spawned(due to ones way of "middleman"ing a product or producing it more cheaply.Or by producing something that is high in demand and low in production.

blah blah blah it's 2:30am
-----
Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

>>>Joe Blow thinks he can make money selling balls, so he buys a $10,000 pair of mojaves from Big Boy Balls. Joe breeds them 2 years later, and realizes no one in their right mind would buy a $5000 mojave for a "pet." Luckily, John Doe decides he could make money breeding ball pythons, so he buys some mojaves from Joe Blow. And the cycle continues.

OK...in my opinion, you've hit the nail on the head w/ the ball market, but I don't think that's absolutely a bad thing...Picture this...

I bought my snakes from people who breed snakes. I'm going to breed snakes and sell/trade them to others who will breed snakes. When it's all said and done, it's kinda like a pyramid-type system. What's cool about it, though, is that you make some INCREDIBLE, cool snakes, own some incredible cool snakes and have TONS OF FUN!!!!!

I think that's the big deal w/ it all. I don't think anyone's truly believing that they're selling snakes for $$$$$$$$$ to people who aren't gong to turn around and try to make it back...what's great is that it's cool, fun, and it will hopefully pay for itself over the long haul by other people doing the same thing!
-----
Jeremy Conrad
_____________

...Can't...stop...must...get...more...balls...

i agree.

I agree Jeremy. Prices on morphs are very high, but I honestly don't care. I am very new to the hobby, but I love it. I enjoy taking care of my snakes and it certainly is alot of fun. I say breed your snakes to sell and trade until you have all the different kind of morphs that are out there.

Kyle

The person involved in snakes making the most money is......................................................................................................................................The owner of Kingsnake. I think he figured it out long ago. Even if the price of Lessers, Pieds, Clowns, etc., come down to $1000, everyone will still be paying their $100 to advertise here. Too me, the owner of KS is the BIG winner in the whole reptile business.

i dont doubt it.

Hey,

C-mon- before posting here about morphs EVER, you should watch the forums and the market and LEARN. I, too, confess that when I got into this hobby 5 years ago, I couldn't understand pricing...but I was not ignorant enough to post my own misunderstanding. It's amazing how people will voluntarily expose their own lack of education by posting their newly found OPINION on a market they cannot hope to understand. Look at show horses, specialty cars, yachts, dogs, shall I go on? Or don't you know about those markets too? How about real estate? It's the same exact house, just on a smaller lot, in a different location- why is it more money?

People have been doing this for years and know what they are doing through education, market, and good business sense.

Really, when it all comes down to it, they ARE just different colored snakes, but they have the POTENTIAL to make MORE different colored snakes. Hey, relax- if the market crashes like you say it will/should, then all we're left with is a bunch of cool-looking snakes!

SHEEESH!

Steve Harrison
Jackonville, FL

markets. It is no different. I don't have the money to buy any of the expensive verieties but if others can, do and want to, then they are there. And I have to say, if I could afford it, I wouldn't mind having a clown, pinstripe or cinnamon pastel in my collection.

I showed dogs for some years and have raised pure bred dogs for many, many years. I have also owned mutts. There is nothing different between a good mutt and a good pure bred dog except you know what looks to expect from the pure bred, and in the case of dogs, what temperment to expect, so people pay for the pure breds. There is nothing different between a top winning show dog and a well bred registered pet lieing on someones couch except that the show dog is groomed and primped into shape and hauled off to many, many shows, yet that show dogs pups go for $1000 - $5000 and the couch potatoes pups for $200. Who buys the $1000 - $5000 show puppy? Other people who love the looks of the breed, want to show and have a chance at top winnings AND expect to make their money back. Others buy the lesser non-shown pure bred for a couple hundred and others pick up a mutt puppy for next to nothing. It is all dependant on what you prefer. And I have seen some mutts more beautiful looking than a registered dog.

Who buys multi thousand dollar to multi million dollar show horses? Others who enjoy that sport and want to be part of it.

Same with birds, rabbits, cats, etc. Wide range of prices dependant on particulars. Yet the all look similar, eat the same and play the same. Shrug. The snake market is no different. As you said, you know demand dictates pricing, so as long as Joe Smoe is willing to pay the price, the market will hold it.

People normally have to work hard in care and upkeep to make new breeds/morphs/etc. and I feel have the right to profit from such. If the new breed/morph proves itself out to consistently reproduce itself, and others like what was produced, then they will pay the market price IF they want it. Me, I can't afford it, but I certainly love to look. lol.
That is my .02 on this.

my point is that the only people who buy the extremely expensive morphs are other breeders.

"my point is that the only people who buy the extremely expensive morphs are other breeders."

Of course mostly breeders buy them, what else is there to do with snakes but breed them? Not all breeders are looking to make money. I am into ball pythons for the challange of breeding them and producing visual morphs that I can not afford. That is why I only buy hets. My goal is a lavender albino pied, and in about 6 years I hope to have one. I look at ball python as more of a hobby than a pet. My dog is my pet, my snakes are my hobby. If you mean kids are not buying these snakes as pets you are probably correct
-----
1.2 Het Pied
1.1 Het Lavender Albino
1.1 Het Albino
0.7 Normals
1.0 66% Het lav albino
1.0 50% Het lav albino
0.0.2 1999 Hatchling Galapagos Torts

well its good to see that some people arent in it for the money.

You're absolutely right, some aren't in it for the money. I sold to some people this year that plan to just breed them to a few females, and get their money back!! While some wanted to do this, some others just wanted to sell enough to pay for food and bedding for the year. And you can't forget those people that produce morphs for TRADE VALUE to get what snakes they want for FREE!!

HIGH priced show dogs and horses are other show people (dogs) and racing/hunting/showing people (horses) also. If the person is not wanting to get into the showing for the love of it or the hope for profit return, they will go for the cheaper version or the mutt. That is normal in most markets. Some novices do buy for the "prestige" of having the top "dog" becaue they can or because they want to show it off, same with snakes, but most are breeders selling to other breeders or hopeful breeders. That's a fact. Go to a horse auction and you will see seasoned "horse" people, only a few "novices" will be in the group. That's a fact.

Will the prices come down, will the market lose its speed? Sure it will, eventually. Only to pick up in another area most likely. I always feel that a careful look at the market and why I am doing it is very important in my descision on what and how much to spend. If you feel the market is strong and feel that the chances are good in a return in profit, then go for it. If it is iffy or your gut feeling says no, then don't. In other words, buy what you are comfortable with. Me, I am very happy with my four normals. Not saying I wouldn't some day in the future get a nice "fancy" morph, but I know my limits and am happy with where I am with it.

agreed.

I will go along with Show Horses and Dog Shows as similar to Ball breeding, but for those who think buying a snake is a better investment than buying a house, I would beg to differ. I think we all have seen the various Co Dom morph prices drop drastically. That being said, most cool, sought after crosses involve a simple recessive AND a Co Dom or Dom animal. Look at the Pastel Pied, the Pastel Stripe, the Pastel Clown, etc. They are probably started with a $900 male Pastel. If I had to do all over again, I would have purchased a Pastel, pair of Het Pieds, and pair of Ghosts. Ghosts make the best crosses, much better than Albinos as a whole, and everyone loves the Pieds. As it is, I have a few normal females, a Male Mojave possible het Hypo, a Mojave cross female that is also possible het Hypo, Het pairs of Axanthics, Pieds, Green Ghosts, an Albino male, and two Het females, a Ghost male and a few Het and possible Het females, a Yb male, a trio of Pastels, a Het Caramel female, some dinking around projects, and the Ember Balls. All of the snakes were purchased from well known breeders, except the YB and the original Ember Ball female, which may be the savior in my collection. It all has been worth while to hatch out something new, or something that is my own line from an animal that cost me less than a baby normal female would today. The people who are going to have problems are people who do not have the money to buy a morph or two, and want to complain about how stupid the people are who have spent thousands on morphs, or the people who spend money they do not have on morphs, and expect to make millions. The thing that makes the Ball market so unpredictable is that is really is one big cycle, with no real end benefit. What I mean is, you pay $40K for a car, alot of money, but it gets you to work. You spend $250K on a house, but then you do not have to pay rent anymore, and if you are lucky, your house goes up like $5K a month like here in CA. You buy a boat, you go fishing or skiing, you buy a motorcycle, you go have fun on it...with Balls, you buy them to breed them, and hope someone else wants to breed what you hatched. There is no "benefit" like buying a car, a boat, a house, etc. You do not SHOW your snakes, you basically breed them. Right now, I would buy some of the lower priced snakes and hope the price stays steady, I think the higher the price, the faster and farther they will fall. But, buy what you like and if you can break even, or make a buck, count yourself lucky.

my point exactly...the morph business is always about money, not the snakes.

I completely disagree.......sorry, I have to jump in here. First of all, I do want want to make it seem like I am just in it for the money. To me, the money has always been a "perk". In fact, this business has been so good to me, that I get to spend most of my day with my snakes, enjoying them to the fullest. I get to talk to breeders, future breeders, and ball enthusiasts all over the country all day long if I please. I get to obtain the rarest, craziest looking morphs out there and not pay a dime for them. You say that a house, a car, etc. is a better investment. All of those items get worn down, and decrease in price (some cars won't, as long as they are new, and some houses my go up, given). But with snakes if you get in when you are truly ready, then there is no reason to complain. When I bought my spider last year for 15k, and watched the price drop to 5k, do you think I complained? No.....because this year I produced 18, and 14 were males. I sold all of them within $500 of market value. I bought/traded for my dream morphs, and I just bought my first house, might I say a damn nice one, where I'm beginning construction of a 20footX30foot facility to hold all the snakes I care about!! And sticking to the smaller priced animals? No wonder you're so upset!! Smaller price means lower demand, which means you have to work harder to make a sale. See what I mean? I understand not everybody can afford the expensive snakes, but I still think it's important to find the right breeder, and have a good investment in the beginning. Sure it's a risk, but so is life!! Note: the spider isn't the only snake I produced, and I'm making lots more stuff this year!! When I produced all these spiders, I'm sure some of you are thinking that I was "just in it for the money". No!! A lot of my money went into new morphs!! How can any of you call me greedy, and call yourselves ball enthusiasts, when I'm getting all the morphs that you guys are dying for!! And you guys are just sitting around to wait for the market to drop? You guys do what you want, judge me how you want to, but I get to see so many eggs hatch, see so much variation in pattern of all the morphs out there that I loved from the beginning, and I get to partake in producing never before seen combo morphs!! And on top of that, I get to make friends with people all over the country, meet up with them at shows, and talk snakes. Can't beat it!! I love my snakes so much, I want to see more of them in my collection....whether by buying/trading, or producing more on my own. How can there be anything wrong with that?

"There is nothing different between a top winning show dog and a well bred registered pet lieing on someones couch except that the show dog is groomed and primped into shape and hauled off to many, many shows"

I have a hard time believing that anyone who has finished a dog would make such a statement. What about conformation and breed standards?!!!

I'll agree that an owner (who doesn't want to get involved in the crazy political world of dog shows,) can get the same happy companionship from a pet quality animal as they can from a show quality: but to suggest that the only difference is in primping, is like suggesting that any woman out there can be a super model with a little make up. (As much as we all wish it were so... it just isn't.)

Good genes are good genes. Breeding them into an exceptional looking animals; be it dog,or snake takes experience,hardwork, many years, lots of luck, patience, patience, and patience (did I mention patience?)

Ball pythons are great snakes. If you don't appreciate the beauty and possibilities of morphs, then stick to the normals they're beautiful too. But obviously there are many out there that do , and are williing to pay the prices....

MHO
Champion Zephyr of Toni Mara.
1988-2004
May she rest in peace.

-----
"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

I'll agree ... but to suggest that the only difference is in primping, is like suggesting that any woman out there can be a super model with a little make up. (As much as we all wish it were so... it just isn't.)

Good genes are good genes. Breeding them into an exceptional looking animals; be it dog,or snake takes experience,hardwork, many years, lots of luck, patience, patience, and patience (did I mention patience?)

This analogy hits me strangely. Generally, people don't consciously breed with other people just to produce babies with certain characteristics. Obviously, people tend to marry people who have traits that they find attractive. For most of us, at least in today's society, the attraction is not in hoping to reproduce those traits in a child. In fact, we now see that attitude as being wrong. I've heard of women in the past telling their daughters to marry a blond-haired, blue-eyed men so that they wouldn't have "those horrible dark babies." I doubt many women would give the same kind of advice today. I've reached a point in life where I'm not attracted to any particular hair color in a woman, but even when I had a preference, the point was not that I would want to control the coloring of any kids that I had.

While not just "any woman out there" can be a supermodel, I think many women that one meets in everyday life can be just as attractive physically and certainly tempermentally as any supermodel. While genes may disqualify some women from being supermodels because these women just don't have the height or the cheekbones, there are many women in everyday life who have those cheekbones. A very rich guy looking for a so-called trophy wife may want only someone who has walked the catwalk in big-name fashion shows, but most of us aren't going to see things that way.

I don't know dogs well enough to know all the terms that you are using, but I think the point of the post was that only a few people are going to know or care about those terms. If I wanted a dog, I'd want something that could live outside, that wouldn't bark too much, that would eat burglars but not neighborhood children, and that wouldn't shed too much or break stuff when he came in the house. I wouldn't care whether he held his tail a certain way that his breed is supposed to hold their tails. For dog show people, this apathy towards their viewpoint on dogs may be incomprehensible, but I think gardenmum's message was simply that this difference is what separates those who will pay for show dogs and those who just want a regular dog. To you, the difference is more than primping. To me, for my purposes, the difference is just primping.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

It ludicrous and offensive to suggest that anyone was comparing breeding dogs or snakes to “breeding humans”

The analogy is about genetics. As you just stated:
“…not just any woman out there can be a supermodel, …..While genes may disqualify some women from being supermodels…”
This is exactly my point.

Top breeders Invest extraordinary amounts of time energy in their animals. They keep careful records and make careful pairing choices through many generations. They know which animals have a tendency to throw which traits…including temperament (in dogs at least).

To imply that any pet shop pure bred could compete in the show ring with a little “primping” is naïve, ridiculous, and insulting to the breeders who have spent many years dedicated to the integrity of their lines.

It is the same with top breeders in Ball Pythons. It is only with much vision, dedication, research and careful thought that ANY morphs were ever “proven” and reproduced. It is the initial innovation that one is paying for. ( even if it is 3rd hand from someone only in it for the money )

If someone doesn’t value/ understand all that goes into it, then more power to them in enjoying their mixed breed or pet quality dog… or normal ball pythons. It does not mean there is no difference or no reason for price discrepancy.

-----
"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

It ludicrous and offensive to suggest that anyone was comparing breeding dogs or snakes to “breeding humans”

I meant no offense, but I didn't make the analogy between champion dogs and supermodels.

The analogy is about genetics. As you just stated:
“…not just any woman out there can be a supermodel, …..While genes may disqualify some women from being supermodels…”
This is exactly my point.

You've parsed my words pretty severely in order to miss the point that I was making. The people who have extraordinary qualities that are at least somewhat determined by genetics are people who received those genes by the luck of the draw. If I understand what you (and others) have said about dogs, the average guy next door who breeds his Irish Setter to the Irish Setter down the street is not going to produce a grand champion regardless of how pretty the puppies grow up to be. However, his daughter, the offspring of his average self and his average wife, may have the bone structure to grow up to be a supermodel, have the ear and coordination to grow up to be an elite violinist, or have the intelligence to grow up to find the cure for AIDS. The genetic side of this potential is still luck and not planning. Where people are different from the others is that good genetics is not planned, and the analogy from snakes to dogs to people breaks down in that area.

Another breakdown of the analogy is in the work required to realize potential. For a person, realizing an extraordinary potential is about hard work and dedication and usually a good amount of family support. The daughter given in the previous example is not going to be a supermodel if she eats too much ice cream, is not going to be a violinist if she doesn't practice, and is not going to find a cure for AIDS if she won't study. If I understand correctly, realizing the genetic potential of a show dog is also the result of long hours of training by the owner. I don't criticize those who enjoy putting this effort into a dog, but to me, this effort is the "primping" that the other poster mentioned. For a snake, I'm not aware of anything necessary to make a $10,000 snake reach its potential other than the same good husbandry that one would practice in raising and breeding a $40 normal.

These differences are why the whole analogy is hitting me strangely. I have no problem with the fact that unusual snakes cost a great deal of money. The breeders have invested a great deal of time and money into breeding these animals, and I don't have a problem with their receiving what the market will bear. I just think this discussion has spun the analogies a little far. I'm sorry that you're offended that I see it that way.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

ok this thread is no longer about snakes but that's ok because some people tend to spout off at the mouth about somethings they have no idea about. First off human genetics are not a luck of the draw. Most genetic traits are passed the same way that the simple recessive, co-dom, and dom genes are in snakes. However, some of the traits us humans have are compiled on top of each other often masking or exagerating them. There was two studies done around 1920 in new york state to test whether or not the tendancy to commit crimal acts and whether feeble-mindedness was able to passed on to future generations. In both studies, there was strong evidence to support the claims. You can look up both these studies. The families were the Jukes and the Kallikaks.
Now to dog breeding. Grand Champion dogs are bred and created. You must be very careful with the breedings to ensure that the conformation standards are met perfectly. For instance, if the breed standard for a dog is 18 inches at the withers, no dog that is 21 inches could have a chance at winning in a show surrounded by dogs that were all 18 inches. Granted there is primping involved in the form of great training and making sure the dogs coat, skin, nails and teeth are all clean, nicely trimmed and shiny but that's where the primping ends and the rest is up to the genes.
This goes the same with snakes. Anyone can go buy a pastel male and a couple average adult females and breed them. He will produce some average pastels. Now the breeder that has done his work and know's wich females through some great yellow babies produces stunning pastels that should be worth more since the genetics, not just the pastel genetics are better.
-----
Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

ok this thread is no longer about snakes but that's ok because some people tend to spout off at the mouth about somethings they have no idea about. First off human genetics are not a luck of the draw. Most genetic traits are passed the same way that the simple recessive, co-dom, and dom genes are in snakes. However, some of the traits us humans have are compiled on top of each other often masking or exagerating them. There was two studies done around 1920 in new york state to test whether or not the tendancy to commit crimal acts and whether feeble-mindedness was able to passed on to future generations. In both studies, there was strong evidence to support the claims. You can look up both these studies. The families were the Jukes and the Kallikaks.

First, if you're going to open your post claiming to correct the problem that "some people tend to spout off at the mouth about somethings they have no idea about," you need to do better than to try to reduce a complicated area of research to two studies. I have two master's degrees, and one thing that years of research has shown me is that things are rarely this simple. I've seen learned professors and researchers have heated arguments about complicated topics because both insisted that the other's results couldn't be right. I've spent plenty of time with grad students who were involved in those studies. They were doing experiments that yielded one kind of repeatable results for them. When the same experiment was repeated at another university, the other grad students saw different results. While my area is metallurgy and not sociology, I've read enough about social issues to realize that the "nature versus nurture" debate around crime is not as simple as your post seems to claim. The tendency towards "feeble-mindedness" is probably less controversial. Some forms of mental retardation obviously have a genetic origin. However, your attempt to refute what I said with this line of argument is weak.

Secondly, I realize that human genetics passed on in the same way that animal genetics are passed on. My point was and remains that very few people marry for the purpose of breeding specific genetic traits into their children. People are complicated enough that doing so would be difficult as well as morally repugnant. As I said in a previous post, most people who have extraordinary talents have those talents because they were lucky in the genes that they received. They were not bred to have extraordinary talent, intelligence, or looks.

No one is disputing anything that you have said about dog breeding. The original poster's point was that for most of us, the difference between the dog that matches the 18 inch withers of the standard and the dog that is 21 inches at the withers is irrelevant. The champion dog has champion genes, and those genes make him more valuable to dog breeders. They don't make him more valuable to the rest of us. The original poster didn't address whether all dog show enthusiasts were in it for the money. I certainly don't believe that all of them are in it for the money, and I wouldn't be all that bothered if they were.

No one is disputing that genetics will determine which snakes meet the demands of the market at any given time. The original poster seemed to be offended that the market sustained such high prices for some snakes. I'm not offended at that situation. I think it's great that some people have the knowledge, the talent, the eye, and the patience to produce some of the animals that I've seen on these forums. I'm happy for them to receive what the market will bear in compensation. My point was that the analogy between snakes and people is flawed. An absolutely stunning pastel exists because someone bred that pastel's parents specifically to make an absolutely stunning offspring. A person of extreme beauty or talent isn't likely to have been bred specifically to produce a child with that beauty or talent.

As I said previously, the analogy strikes me a little strangely, and I believe that the analogy is flawed. It's unfortunate that so many people are upset that I didn't like the analogy. It's likewise unfortunate that they jump to so many wrongful conclusions about the points that I made in explaining my views on this analogy.

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

my posting.

I totally agree with you about showing the dogs....hence my remark regarding the morphs "It is no different. I don't have the money to buy any of the expensive verieties but if others can, do and want to, then they are there. And I have to say, if I could afford it, I wouldn't mind having a clown, pinstripe or cinnamon pastel in my collection."

I was making the remark that there is nothing different in the sense that a well bred registered dog that lays on the couch is just as nice as the one shown, the only difference is in the preparing and shwoing of the dog. I was likening this to normalbp's remark that the normal is just as nice as a morph and he can't understand why they want more and it was artificial high pricing. Yes, the well bred dog on the couch is just as nice as the top show dog, but their is more work in the show dog and thus more money expected from its offspring, same with the morphs. I was NOT saying that the show dog is not worth its price, just saying that the people who create and breed ball morphs should expect more for their product just as the dog show person who finishes a dog does. Normalbp couldn't understand why they do this pricing in the morphs and said ONLY other BP breeding hopefuls buy them. I compared it to the dogs and also horses, cats, etc. in which it is the same thing. Show dogs sell mostly to show people or show hopefuls, or someone who wants to say they have a dog out of X lines. IN other words, I was saying to normalbp that all industries are the same and he shouldn't expect the snake, in this case the BP's to be any different.

At this time I have normals and am proud of them. Just as I would be proud of a mutt that was a loyal, loving companion. But, I do have registered, well bred dogs and I love them becaus I love their breed characteristics and their personalities as well as their loyal, loving companionship. If in the future I have the money to buy a "designer" morph, would I? Heck, yes.

To state my opinion directly: If you want a designer morph, be prepared to pay the price that went into creating this morph. If you are happy with the normal (and highly good looking) ones, then pay the lesser price. But don't complain if someone wants a higher price and others are willing to pay it. AND YES, the higher priced 'items' of any industry sell basically to those interested in getting into that industry, not the person who wants one pet. If you wanted a horse, you wouldn't go out and pay two million dollars for a foal with top racing blood in its veins UNLESS you are 'in that business' and were expecting to race, breed and hopefully make your money back. SAME applies to the snakes.

I am sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. I showed for a few years and showed two of my dogs myself to their Championships, I know the work involved and the joy and pain of it all. I no longer show in breed but obedience and agility are more my thing. Hate to say it but the breed ring just got too political for my liking. But this has nothing to do with normalbp's issues.

Best of luck with all your showing.

If you collect something, anything, you want the best, the most sought after, the coolest, the newest thing...

We are talking snakes, Ball Pythons in particular, and if you are into keeping snakes, some people will graduate into breeding them, and soon realize that breeding normals is not as much fun as breeding Morphs, and then realize that they can sell and trade to get the Morphs they REALLY want when price is no object.............the pics are of the Ember Balls I hatched out, and the thrill of hatching something that is genetic out of a known, and and unknown pairing is amazing! Made it all worth while for me.

That is right, I will say it, it is an ego thing too. My snake is bigger than your snake, my house is bigger than your house, my BMW makes your Pinto look lame, my Pastel Pied is nicer looking than your Pastel Ghost, don't you wish you would have been as smart as me and done the cross I did instead of that lame @$$ Pastel and Hypo cross....

Is it possible that your perspective on buying morphs is skewed because your data set is only made of those who post on these forums? Most of the people here who have morphs are breeding. They may be breeding at the hobbyist level in which case they aren't necessarily looking to make much money but they will see a high sales price of those animals as evidence that they succeeded in breeding something unique. They may be breeding at the professional or semi-professional level where they are deriving a significant amount of money from breeding snakes. In either case, they come to these boards to gain exposure that will help them acheive success as they define it. The pet owner who has a nice morph simply for the joy of owning a nice morph may not be here because he/she isn't interested in exposure. He/she already has enough experience not to need advice on feeding or caging. He/she is enjoying his unusual ball python and going about his business without talking about the snake here on kingsnake.com.

Maybe we could get some of the breeders to comment on this thought. Would any of the breeders please let us know:

What percentage of your morphs are sold to people who just want an unusually-colored python for a pet?

Do you keep up with any of the animals you produce by having private talks with the new owners? If so, do you hear of people who started with the idea of breeding and ended up deciding to make the animal a pet? In this category, I'd include those who breed the animal just a few times to produce animals for friends but not for resale.

How many of you who are breeders live in a state where you need a license to sell snakes for a profit? If so, are you producing enough to make the license worthwhile?

Thanks,

Bill
-----
It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I couldn't disagree more with you, Mojaves and all these morphs are NOT normals, normals don't produce Supers like the Super Mojave , Ivory , etc.. Look again at those animals and tell me they are $35 animals , LOL!!! Look at the Yellow Bellies, Mojaves , Cinnamons, Spot Nose , Mystic , Phantoms, etc as VISUAL HETS to make Supers and it will begin to make sence to you!!!! Go ahead and stick with the $35 pretty normals , the rest of us are busy at work and don't plan on staying @ that level, it pays to think outside of the box in this industry!!! Your odds of producing anything spectacular with $35 normals aren't very good... Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles..

if someone sells a mojave for 5K, and gets it, then there is a market for it, so more power to those who work hard to produce them, and god bless those who buy them. People who do buy them, for whatever price, for whatever reason, have a dream to raise this snake and;
A. Breed it
or
B. Sell it
or
C. Keep as a Pet
or a combination.
This snake has the potential to produce super mojaves(all white with dirty gray head), all white snake with blue eyes(lucy), and much, much more. So if you like ball pythons, and you want an all white snake with blue eyes, and you have 5K, you to can be on your way to producing one. Thats what makes them so valuable. Dont forget, if you by chance breed your new mojave with some new type of morph, or get lucky and produce something new, and you are the first, CHA-CHING!
Ball Pythons are like the lottery, EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE!
OH yeah, it is a Hobby to most of us, so if we can afford it and we can make some $$$$$$ doing, and we have fun, WHY NOT?

n/p

The way Alan Greenspan described the Internet Stock trade of a few years ago has some parallels in the BP world, and I expect it will have a similar correction in the not too distant future.

It isn't a limitless market. There really are only so many cages to fill and once they're filled, prices are going to plunge for EVERYTHING.

Doug T
Doug Taylor Reptiles

I read through this whole thing, and as an outsider to the breeding world, I have but one short comment.

Where do you all think these wonderfully colored Hypo's, Super Colors, Pie Bald, Co-Dom, and ultra variations came from? While I totally agree that the price for those hard to get breeds of snake are slightly high priced, I can understand the logistics an the business side of why they cost so much. It may have taken a breeder several years of breeding low end morps, to get a mid morp, which has a chance at a super morph, which will produce this .. and that.. which costs an unknown amount of money. To me, its money well earned, if Breeder Bob can get 5k for his PieBald, since its probably cost him about 15k just to get him to that point.

In the beginning, when the snake trade was in its infancy.. just having a plain jane ( ok, they're not plain at all ) Albino Ball Python, was like owning an original Babe Ruth bubble gum card. Now, the Albino's arent so hard to come by, and its the Black Eyed Luecitious (Spelling error, I know.) thats the current ' Hot Item ' on the market. Somewhere along the line, some smart breeder did the same thing that the English and French did with their dogs and horses. They started breeding and cross breeding.. and making all these great colors. So.. really.. someone with the time and money, and a little bit of brains could plausibly take a double handful of normal ball pythons, and make that super snake, that everyone is after now. Although it would take him alot of effort.

Frankly, I'll take my chances with a few normals and maybe an albino in the mix and see what happens. If I happen to get that piebald, or clown ball, then Whoopie For Me! If I don't.. well.. I just sell what I don't want to keep, or simply don't have room for.. and keep right on trucking.. cuz its my hobby. Thats what I do. Keep the market where you want it... I'll find somebody out there that can take care of my snakes, and are willing to pay a decent price to keep me in business, all the while enjoying these topics about the high price of the super snakes, quietly hoping that I breed out one of these species by accident, and can throw my 35 dollar baby pics up and say " Guess What I Made?!?! "

Yea.. Ok. This is kinda pointless. But.. thats my .02.

"read through this whole thing, and as an outsider to the breeding world, I have but one short comment"

ha ha ha ... Brevity isn't one of my strong points either...

Best regards,
AVD
-----
"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

Are you saying that there might be some recessive traits in these normals that might make a pieblad? Or are you actually saying that you can make these morphs without any mutations in their DNA at all? Wow, I've heard of taking the cheap, long route before, but waiting to breed enough ball pythons for a random mutation to make a piebald takes the cake.......

Well, I'm not a breeding expert. I honestly couldn't tell you which two types to breed together to get a piebald. I'm sure its possible starting with 2 normals.. but, to reply to your statement.. No. I'm not gonna wait around for some random mutation. My current desire is only in breeding normals, and thats not even in the present. I have yet to get my habitats built, nor prepared an incubation area for the clutches. I'm still in the research phase, but thats my plans. To start simple, and work my way up.. eventually. But, until I do drop 5k on a hypo to start breeding the high end herps, I'll kick back and enjoy the low market for normals and albino's.

Now, if some super breeder wants to explain how its plausible to get a piebald ( in this instance ) out of two normals.. then.. lets hear it. Cuz I'm all ears. But, I have no earthly idea. If that accident happens though.. boy will I be one happy snake owner.

the only way to get a pied from 2 normal looking animals is for them to be het for pied. For a person to pick up a pair of het pieds (or any other morph) from a group of imports or ch babies would be gift from god, it's almost impossible. there was one example of a person (John Piro) who bred a "normal" to a het lav albino last year and produced a lav albino, that normal turned out to be a het. The chances of that happening to any one of us are slim at best. Now you say you are going to stick to the low end normals and albino's. I'm not sure if you've noticed but albino's still command a decent price, more than most would pay for a snake. I mean the average snake keeper isn't going to drop $1.5-2k on a snake. Granted like you said you are several years away so maybe the albino's will drop to like $500-$1000 by then and I guess there is quite a large market for animals in that price range. That's my goal with pieds, produce quite a few het's and possible hets over this year and next year and a few pieds. In 4 years when the price is around $1000-$1500 I should be producing 30-50 pieds. If I'm able to sell 80% of those at $1k I'll be sooooooooooooooo dang happy I'll just have to go buy me some more snakes, lol.
-----
Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

That my good man, is the exact plan. Get in with the low balls ( no pun ) as soon as I'm equipped. Get a few Albino's and het-albino's to give a little extra funding, but not producing those on a 'large' scale. The normals will help pay for the day-to-day things, with the half dozen or so pet stores around here looking for a regular source for reptiles, and I'll out of pocket the rest of the costs. A few college students, or other types of buyers and I should be able to keep things up until I'm ready to start breeding the high end morphs or get heavier with albino producers. Even at 1k per for albies, I think I could find a market around my area to sell about 3-5 a year.

That is a great plan. You have a realistic approach on where you want to go. Alot of people have the idea of buying a few morph males and a bunch of normal females and think they are going to be able to quit there jobs and get rich, that's just not the way this thing works on most occasions. My ultimate goal is to suppliment my income with 30-50k a year which i think is do-able with the morphs I'm working with (should be picking up a spider male tomorrow in tampa as long as I can find a good deal on the right snake, I want to make a bumblebee). I wish you the best of luck and have a great time playing with your balls, lol.
-----
Josh Hutto
JKReptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"And sticking to the smaller priced animals? No wonder you're so upset!! Smaller price means lower demand, which means you have to work harder to make a sale. See what I mean?"

I LOVE snakes, and I am CRAZY about horses. About 10 years ago, I decided to sell off my "normal" horse and invest in an "exotic". I was spending all my time with horses anyways, so why not go for something worth more $$ and more pay-off? And ka-ching, the foals I raise now go for $12,000 to $15,000 before they are born. Of course alot of that money goes right back into the business, and into my HOBBY.

Now with snakes, I was in the market for a new pet. So I did some research. And lo and behold, oh my gosh, can you believe the prices they are getting these days for snakes???

So instead of getting a normal snake, I had to get an exotic- colored one. Pretty, unique, and worth something. Someday perhaps my boa will produce more boas. and Ka-ching. My hobby makes a little extra change. In the end I hope to have FUN producing something of quality. (And besides, snakes take up a lot less room than horses!)

I think there are plenty of us out there. Hobbyists who want a little more bang for the buck and are willing to pay for it. Thankfully there is a market out there for some of the babies we MIGHT produce. and even if we don't, we still have that thing called EGO. which says my snake is prettier than your snake and I paid big bucks $$$ for it!

yours truly,
Donna DeYoung
Spanish Vision Farm - Misty River Reptiles
www.andalusianhorseclub.com