Reptile & Amphibian Forums

and i have a question that i believe will stir the mix up. im not sure who started out with the first blood red, so my opinion might be completely null and void, but
WHAT IF the blood red actually started with a hybrid cross with a bairds rat X corn snake. it just seems that their are to many similarities between bairds rats and bloodred corns. a bairds rat to my inexperience starts out completely grey with somewhat of a pattern and as it matures turns a nice red/orange and keeps the grey head. now that the possability of it being a hybrid is their, hypothetically when you cross the two, the sibilings COULD retain the color and pattern of the corn and get the grey head ( i think someone said sometimes sides also ) of the bairds rat. when the sibiling start to mature the pattern diffuses and the red orange of the bairds comes in to play causing the infusion of the bright colors and accentuating the corns origional colors.
SO EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS IS ONLY A STAB IN THE DARK, THIS IS NOT MY OPINION ONLY A OBSERVATION THAT COULD BE A POSSABILITY.
thank you please post YOUR opinions
adam jeffery
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.2 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

.
-----
0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.2 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

God only knows, but if anything wouldn't the baird's be more similar to stripes? And then all that follow that ,, OH BOY I started it now!

I think? the Loves made the first bloods?

My argument again, and just throwing ideas. I think a hybrid would have created a simpler genetic code to figure out? Or at least some of it. I very well could be wrong,, I've done that a lot lol.

No one has been able to put a handle on the blood if multigenic, multiallelic, or both.

Very interesting idea though. Some need to write a scipt to cross all rat snakes and corn morphs, and the output is color images, babies and adults. Someday I guess

>>and i have a question that i believe will stir the mix up. im not sure who started out with the first blood red, so my opinion might be completely null and void, but
>>WHAT IF the blood red actually started with a hybrid cross with a bairds rat X corn snake. it just seems that their are to many similarities between bairds rats and bloodred corns. a bairds rat to my inexperience starts out completely grey with somewhat of a pattern and as it matures turns a nice red/orange and keeps the grey head. now that the possability of it being a hybrid is their, hypothetically when you cross the two, the sibilings COULD retain the color and pattern of the corn and get the grey head ( i think someone said sometimes sides also ) of the bairds rat. when the sibiling start to mature the pattern diffuses and the red orange of the bairds comes in to play causing the infusion of the bright colors and accentuating the corns origional colors.
>>SO EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS IS ONLY A STAB IN THE DARK, THIS IS NOT MY OPINION ONLY A OBSERVATION THAT COULD BE A POSSABILITY.
>>thank you please post YOUR opinions
>>adam jeffery
>>-----
>>0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
>>1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
>>1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
>>1.0 sinacorn
>>0.0.2 snapping turtles
>>0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
>>1.1 kenyan sand boas
>>0.1 mbk
>>0.1 albino nelsons
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I have thought of that myself, baird's x Corn , and possibly the bloodreds are just that,or maybe Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni x Corn, they do a similar thing, start off greyish and turn a nice orangy/red or a deeper red like the Photo Shown.

i allso think the pied sided or white sided cornsnakes that have been shown on this forum are more than likely hybrids aswell.

Everglades ratsnake

>>I have thought of that myself, baird's x Corn , and possibly the bloodreds are just that,or maybe Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni x Corn, they do a similar thing, start off greyish and turn a nice orangy/red or a deeper red like the Photo Shown.
>>
>>i allso think the pied sided or white sided cornsnakes that have been shown on this forum are more than likely hybrids aswell.
>>
>>Everglades ratsnake
>>
>>

I have seen bairds/corn mixes. They do not look pure corns.
Mexican Bairds start off grey but get more color keeping the grey head.
Texas bairdis tend to get more metallic with color showing between the scales.
Neither get as red as bloodreds.
The pied side bloods that were posted here were bred by Don Soderberg.
Simple fact......they are pure corn.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

You would be surprised the traits that can be kept or discarded or enhanced when you enter into the world of hybridizing, also you breed out then back in again to give that pure look.

I agree that you may have seen a few crosses that dont or wouldnt cut it as a Bloodred , but if you Hybridize the right lookers then line breed them, you would come up with a bloodred easy enough.

as for the Pied sided or white sided, as soon as i can find the emails I will Post a Coversation between a few people that are involved in producing such snakes,that leaves the subject of hybridization OPEN.

Hmmmmmm.

I've been waiting for others to post. But I have said, (please to not miss quote" I do not mind hybrids, if they are not released.

OK, I am officially changing my view. I'm a bit more apprehensive. IN time corns and other herps may be so mongrelized that we can not be certain of anything unless we go back to fresh blood. And then all the genetic work has to start over in effect.

We all know if there are hybrids, even with the most honest intentions, eventually it will be hidden or mistaken information.

And if this topic is correct we are at the beginning of it.

Related I asked Kevin (guest speaker on KS) if the German giant "strain" was in fact barbados blood or pure vitticeps?

He was not certain, he was nice enough to point me to someone else that was doing research.

I personally do not want to see snakes with "mutt genetics" 50% corn bloodred x 25% alterna x 12.5 % baird's x 12% Black rat!

Ok just made that up and is far fetched. Or is it. I have seen the rat x king crosses.

I'm for a loss for words. And that is freaking RARE!

it is scary
tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

the cross you mentioned is really not that far stretched (if at all)
-----
jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

I know, I was trying to be wild with an idea, typed it and then said,, HHmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. lol

What I don't like is hybrids will legitamize certification to a degree.
But how can you track a snake really? You can switch a snake at almost anytime. For tha t matter, and I do not know the process, how does a regitered snake even get registered. IDo they actually see it? If I take a picture off the web and say it is mine,, ok you get it, I don't like the COA thing and tracking everyones snakes.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

what you mean by hybrids will legitmize certification? Also, not sure what COA is?

As far as the registration goes in the new ACR, it is only a database and is only as good as the honesty of the breeder (for that matter, the AKC doesn't go out to look at every litter of puppies, either!). For the most part, corns are not worth such huge $$$ that breeders are likely to go to the trouble of carefully falsifying records there to claim something that they know is untrue. But I am sure there will be some mistakes, just like before the ACR. But it may be easier for the breeder to catch and fix them. But if you don't trust the breeder, then just because it is registered, doesn't mean you can suddenly trust a dishonest person.

COA is certificate of authenticity. I came out of sport cards etc hobby. That took over there and was 95% fraud, huge FBI sting.

That WILL NOT be the same for snakes as I see it.

As for the hybrids, I guess I meant to say MAY, rarely use will or shall, ex cop thing.

Ok, if there is a question in someone's mind on the lineage of a snake, they will want a way to prove it (as best they can). That may promote the record keeping of the snakes lineage by third parties.
It just may become, in time, a way to validate the correctness of what a snake is or what it is claimed to be. That system of record keeping by a third party I personal DO NOT want to see BECOME a way to justify what a snake is.

Maybe it's just me Kathy? I collected coins, and grading killed that hobby. I once collected sports memorabilia. And there were 3 very very reputable grading companies. But then collectors with mass collections started their own grading companies. It is a joke there now.

I am NOT saying this is what's going on in the "herps hobby" (I really need a better term) now. Nor do I think anyone has that intention.

I see a relatively new "hobby" and people use their backgrounds to come up with new inventive ideas to use, and I love that.

I just see the "possibility" of a connection of tracking used for lineage verification.

I truly did not mean to cross anyone? Like I said, 2 hobbies killed, and cops look for that type of stuff. It's out nature I guess.

Sorry if I offended anyone? It's just 1 old mans opinion.

thanks

tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

There are people who have been breeding for years. Some have sterling reputations and others have reputations somewhat tarnished. It behooves the buyer to know from which sort of breeder he is about to get his animals. No piece of paper, no listing on a website, no reference in abook is going to change a tarnished reputation into a sterling one, or sully one that gleems for all to see.

Ask around...

Those of us who have been doing this for a while can steer you right. I won't lead you falsely, because then my reputation would suffer by association. I think most reputable breeders feel the same way.

-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>There are people who have been breeding for years. Some have sterling reputations and others have reputations somewhat tarnished. It behooves the buyer to know from which sort of breeder he is about to get his animals. No piece of paper, no listing on a website, no reference in abook is going to change a tarnished reputation into a sterling one, or sully one that gleems for all to see.
>>
>>Ask around...
>>
>>Those of us who have been doing this for a while can steer you right. I won't lead you falsely, because then my reputation would suffer by association. I think most reputable breeders feel the same way.
>>
>>

I honestly beleive people tend to be a little too paranoid.
You have to have a little trust and faith in people.
Like Kathy said, it is not likely people will go to the time and expense to falsely register animals just to try to pass them off as something they aren't.
It does cost to register a snake. Not only that the thieves are trying to make a quick buck not spend money for the slight possibility of cashing in when the animals begin breeding.
At least in corns anyway. The overall prices don't make it that lucrative.
As far as grading goes there is no grading system or intent on grading connected with the ACR. At least not as I understand it.
There are plenty of breeders, big and small, that are easily trusted.
Yes, there have been, are and will be a few who will do whatever they can to make a quick buck and won't think twice about lying or cheating but they usually don't last long.
You unfortunately have that in every walk of life, every type of business, every hobby.
But there are just so many more that are trustworthy.
Any time you or anyone else has a question about a particular breeder all you have to do is drop in here and ask.
If you can't find what you need here, we can point you in the right direction.
while I'm rambling......
I think the fear of hybrids poluting the entire population of pure corns, well, for lack of a better word, is humorous.
I understand the desire and need to keep proper records and keeping hybrids and pure animals separate.
I just don't see the numbers of hybrids verses pure corns bred yearly to support the possibility.
ok done rambling now...sorry...lol
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

"At least in corns anyway".

My point, and you seem to imply a maybe in that answer? is that ANOTHER person may try to do someone similar, where it is advantageous.

Not really paranoid, just see the potential of what can be and what has been in other venues. Just experience. Like you have gained on who to trust to buy from. That's all.

Please, don't over read my post. it was not intended to cause waves, maybe just awareness.

tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>"At least in corns anyway".
>>
>>My point, and you seem to imply a maybe in that answer? is that ANOTHER person may try to do someone similar, where it is advantageous.
>>
>>Not really paranoid, just see the potential of what can be and what has been in other venues. Just experience. Like you have gained on who to trust to buy from. That's all.
>>
>>Please, don't over read my post. it was not intended to cause waves, maybe just awareness.
>>
>>tom
>>-----

Nothing wrong with posting your opinion.
As long as we can continue to have civil discussions like this
it can only do good.
Gives us all different perspectives.
Nothing wrong with that
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I totally agree, and I'll be the first to admit having a hard time getting a more complex subject clear in a forum or a live chat. Some people do it very well. I don't and have to recap at times.

thanks

tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Darin: You do understand. But you are an educated consumer. I help a friend at a pet shop, he's been there 40 years, same place, and did herps from day 1. If I had $1 for each person that buys a herp from a corp shop, or other "unreputable" places, and comes in to ask us "why is my herp sick or dead?" I'd be in Bermuda.

I tell people to be educated in anything you are going to buy. Unfortunately some people, I might say most, do not take the time or effort. Sad, but its true. And with animals such as herpes, it's even worse. And also, someone once said "there is a sucker born every minutes". Some people see any type of special tag on any item and they just believe it is so, without investigating.

I also got some info on American Cornsnake Registry. It is a great use of database resources. And I never said they were into verification or guarantees of info. I'm just afraid that may follow by OTHER DB's.

Being a computer tech, and like making small info databases, the tracking is a great "real" use of computers.

And for the record I started in herps at 13ish? in 1972. I've seen plenty of crooked dealers. And they eventually far by the way side. But a lot of newbies and just unaware people get bit, and it can have an effect of the entire group. That goes with almost anything.

take care

tom

>>There are people who have been breeding for years. Some have sterling reputations and others have reputations somewhat tarnished. It behooves the buyer to know from which sort of breeder he is about to get his animals. No piece of paper, no listing on a website, no reference in abook is going to change a tarnished reputation into a sterling one, or sully one that gleems for all to see.
>>
>>Ask around...
>>
>>Those of us who have been doing this for a while can steer you right. I won't lead you falsely, because then my reputation would suffer by association. I think most reputable breeders feel the same way.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Darin Chappell
>>Hillbilly Herps
>>PO Box 254
>>Rogersville, MO 65742
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>Darin: You do understand. But you are an educated consumer. I help a friend at a pet shop, he's been there 40 years, same place, and did herps from day 1. If I had $1 for each person that buys a herp from a corp shop, or other "unreputable" places, and comes in to ask us "why is my herp sick or dead?" I'd be in Bermuda.
>>
>>I tell people to be educated in anything you are going to buy. Unfortunately some people, I might say most, do not take the time or effort. Sad, but its true. And with animals such as herpes, it's even worse. And also, someone once said "there is a sucker born every minutes". Some people see any type of special tag on any item and they just believe it is so, without investigating.
>>
>>I also got some info on American Cornsnake Registry. It is a great use of database resources. And I never said they were into verification or guarantees of info. I'm just afraid that may follow by OTHER DB's.
>>
>>Being a computer tech, and like making small info databases, the tracking is a great "real" use of computers.
>>
>>And for the record I started in herps at 13ish? in 1972. I've seen plenty of crooked dealers. And they eventually far by the way side. But a lot of newbies and just unaware people get bit, and it can have an effect of the entire group. That goes with almost anything.
>>
>>take care
>>
>>tom
>>
>>
>>
>>>>There are people who have been breeding for years. Some have sterling reputations and others have reputations somewhat tarnished. It behooves the buyer to know from which sort of breeder he is about to get his animals. No piece of paper, no listing on a website, no reference in abook is going to change a tarnished reputation into a sterling one, or sully one that gleems for all to see.
>>>>
>>>>Ask around...
>>>>
>>>>Those of us who have been doing this for a while can steer you right. I won't lead you falsely, because then my reputation would suffer by association. I think most reputable breeders feel the same way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>Darin Chappell
>>>>Hillbilly Herps
>>>>PO Box 254
>>>>Rogersville, MO 65742
>>-----
>>Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)
>>
>>AOL IM Mettzilla
>>I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS
>>
>>1.3 Bearded Dragons
>>6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
>>1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
>>1 baby creamcycle 0.1
>>2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
>>ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
>>ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
>>2.0 Dogs,
>>0.2 Cats,,
>>0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
>>1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
>>-----
>>tom
>>
>>
>>www.herpzilla.com
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>You would be surprised the traits that can be kept or discarded or enhanced when you enter into the world of hybridizing, also you breed out then back in again to give that pure look.
>>
>>I agree that you may have seen a few crosses that dont or wouldnt cut it as a Bloodred , but if you Hybridize the right lookers then line breed them, you would come up with a bloodred easy enough.
>>
>>as for the Pied sided or white sided, as soon as i can find the emails I will Post a Coversation between a few people that are involved in producing such snakes,that leaves the subject of hybridization OPEN.
>>
>>

you make me laugh....
I will just leave you in your strange little world
BUT
If you think Don Soderberg's pied sided bloods are anything other then pure corn you definitely have a lot to learn.
you can forward all the e-mails you want.
Don says his are pure, simple as that, his are pure.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>> you make me laugh....
I will just leave you in your strange little world
BUT
If you think Don Soderberg's pied sided bloods are anything other then pure corn you definitely have a lot to learn.
you can forward all the e-mails you want.
Don says his are pure, simple as that, his are pure.

"as for the Pied sided or white sided, as soon as i can find the emails I will Post a Coversation between a few people that are involved in producing such snakes,that leaves the subject of hybridization OPEN."

I don't know to whom, or from whom those emails have been addressed, but I know for a fact that Don's pied sided snakes have only purposefully been in the hands of about a dozen people in the whole world. I doubt that any of them are those who suggest that the issue is still "open" for debate.

Most of that dozen have them in their collections right now, and those animals look, act, and respond to stumlii in every regard like a cronsnake. Anyone who says otherwise, is either ignorant of the facts, or lying, and I'll stake my name on that.

Is it POSSIBLE that a non-corn got in the henhouse somewhere back many generations ago? Sure...but that's true for every cornsnake in existence. I know that THESE pied sided bloodreds are NOT the product of specific hybridization, because Don told me so, and that's good enough for me.

The others of the dozen or so who no longer have these animals, were those who were instrumental in the actual BREEDING of the parent animals from which Don got his pied-sided ones. I know who each of them is, and I know that none of them are suggesting that their animals were hybrids either.

Now...

All of that being said, there are at least two other lines of animals with similar markings, which are NOT the same as Don's line. Breeding trials are underway to determine if they are of the same genetic basis, or if something else is afoot. It may be possible that you have spoken with someone who knows of ANOTHER line, which merely LOOKS the same, but was produced through hybridization efforts (corn x whitesided black snake, or something along those lines).

However, even if that is true, the hybridization of one line does not reflect on the purity issue of another line of corns, unless you can show that they both descend from the same breeding project, AND the hybridization efforts were in place prior to the two lines being split from one another. Since that cannot be shown in any way...it is completely inappropriate for you to suggest that Don's snakes are hybrids, whether in theory or not!

There are at least two very popular "morphs" right now about which I have very strong circumstantial evidence that they are the product of hybridization efforts. However, since I cannot prove it, it would be irresponsible of me to simply make my accusations with no solid, irrefutable evidence.

It is irresponsible for you too, Sir.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I'd love to see your evidence that pied sided bloods are not pure corns. I'm inclined to tell you the story of my line.

In the late 1990s, I got a bloodred female from a friend of mine in Colorado. He didn't advertise it as anything special and in recent discussions with him, he said he bought it as a pure bloodred. Except for three little patches of white on the sides that were connected to the belly, the matriarch of this line is anatomically pure corn. Adjunct ventral-lateral white is not uncommon in bloodreds so I never thought I had a promotable trait in this female. I have been selling her babies for over eight years now. I always bred her to pure bloodreds and the babies were never anything special.

Walter Smith called one day a few years ago and asked if I had any adult female bloods with white on them. This one came to mind and I sent here to him on breeding loan. He had a male that had 10 times as much white on it as mine did. He got that male from Brad McDonald.

At the end of that breeding season, he sent me my share of the babies along with the mother. Only one or two of the babies had a few scales of white on them and were nothing remarkable. I kept 3.2 of them.

Last year, I bred one of the males to two of his sisters and to its mother. I got pied sided bloods in all clutches. As many of you know, they have much more white than any of the ancestors. Brad McDonald does produce quite a few of the bloods with more white on them than mine have, but I'm unaware of the lineage of those.

So, my questions are these:
1. Because they don't look like any corn you've seen before, they must be hybrids?
2. Does that also hold true for pie bald ball pythons? They must be hybrids too, huh?

Finally, I'd love for someone to show us emails that prove these are not pure corns. Not because I'm worried about the outcome. Things are what they are. If someone has indisputable proof that the guy I got mine from or the ones Brad McDonald produces are not pure corns, I'd like to see it. I will happily reveal all the facts publically if it turns out there's been a rat snake climbing the family tree.

I have lots of doubts about mainstream corns out there being pure corns. Everyone knows I produce creamsicles and I've even bred jungle corns, but I have always advertised them as exactly what they are. How many generations of back breeding would it take to have eliminated all the hybrid markers of the pied sided bloodred if indeed it was a hybrid? I estimate five to 10 generations before they started looking like corns again. And what other snake out there is lending the random, partial white look (piebaldism) to this line? If this had rattles on the tail, I'd be hard-pressed to say it wasn't a hybrid. If they had a turned up noses, I'd feed them toads. If they had bright red/black/white triads, I couldn't say a milk was in the recipe.

I have farmed out some of the babies to three American snake breeders and I have sold some to two other breeders out there. None have indicated there were any obvious hybrid markers on them and I think the two customers that paid me $2,000.00 each for theirs would have been the first ones to squawk if they saw any markers for rat snake or king snake in these babies. Again, I know of no other snake species out there that contributes a pie bald trait. The only one out there I can think of that looks remotely like these is the pie bald Persian rats. I've never owned one, but it would probably take about 10 generations to produce corns from those that weren't 30 inches long at maturity.

I guess this was my round-about way of asking if someone has credible evidence that the pied sided bloods are not pure corns, I'm all ears (eyes). Heaven knows none of the bloodreds genetically behave like corns. Their latent color metamorphisis is classically CORN, but that pattern change thing is not very corny. I guess if that were the foundation for the rumors that bloods are not pure corns, we've had to say the same thing about motlies and striped corns too. Melanin reduction is often accompanied by pattern change in stripers and sometimes motlies. IF bloodred are pure corns, then the pied sideds are too. I think I have a sharp eye for hybrid markers in corns and I've never seen a single one in my lines.

Please, furnish the forum readers with any proof of the claims that pied sided bloods are not pure corns. I can think of at least five other "corns" that carry strong hybrid markers and have never been proven to be anything else. Heck, with all the variations in corns, once DNA testing becomes affordable, we're probably all in for some shocking lessons.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET

South Mountain Reptiles

HI Don. Great post and thanks for the time to do it.

Sorry to hear about data lose, bit by bit recovery is grossly overpriced.

This week or 2 has been a great history lesson in corns. I was just never into corns, so I did not follow them.

Sad that it has to be over these terms.

Thanks tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

HI Don. Great post and thanks for the time to do it.

Sorry to hear about data lose, bit by bit recovery is grossly overpriced.

This week or 2 has been a great history lesson in corns. I was just never into corns, so I did not follow them.

Sad that it has to be over these terms.

Thanks tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah, I wasn't backed up as much as I should have been. Over 50,000 snake pictures on that drive. I'm just about to wrap up my corn snake book and was grabbing lots of wires behind the computer to take one of the externals with me. I pulled the wires up and the drive got up to my knee level before falling to the concrete floor. By slaving it to four other computers, I was able to see the folders, but not allowed to open them. I jacked around with the jumpers and mastered it to a few of the computers and eventually, I was unable to even see the folders. Called around, knowing I'm one of those guys they dream of. Like the guy that tells you a new transmission is needed on your car. Whaddya do? Ya go for it. Well, $950.00 plus shipping is a relatively small amount to pay for retrieving all those data. I have much of it backed up on DVDs, but you can imagine how many of those it took over the years to put 248 gb of data aside. Of course, there's no way to catalog that so I just decided it was best to let them do it. Shrug? At least I know I'm getting it all back. Had to send them a 300 gb drive to put it on, but I need more of those anyway. I'm excited that the new DVDs are out. What are they? Something like 30 or 40 gb on one disk. Yeehaw. Handy back up system there.

Sorry to stray from the subject, but we can all use another reminder that we don't back up enough or properly.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Don try to get a RAID 5 setup. hard to explain here, but it's well worth your time and investment.

Basically if you have 5 like drives, they act as 1 big one, making it fast. You lose the one as it actually backs up the others by whats called a archive bit. ! drive dies, you pull it, pop in a new one and the system rebuilds that information lost.

SWEEEEEEEEEEEET.

If you do IRC? come into John H.'s room. You know the old man. lol

Or go to his site and java your way in, I can explain better.

Good luck

tom
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

were produced by Ed Leach in Gainesville, Florida, from very red corns that he caught in Spuds and Hastings (N. Florida) that were quite red. Then he did some inbreeding and outcrossing until he started producing what we now call bloodreds. You can read all about the bloodred history in my book. If there is any hybrid blood in any bloodred corns, it is from others who later took bloods and mixed them with something (but I doubt many, if any, did that).

Interestingly, in 2005 we met somebody in St. Augustine (near the original towns where the bloods were collected a long time ago) who has collected some wild "blood het" corns in and around his rural area, and has produced bloods from them recently. I and some others have gotten some of his blood lines to cross to the old ones.

I would be highly amazed if some kind of DNA test ever showed any non-corn blood in most bloods offered today.

Hi Kathy, I sure you don't remember? but we chatted a few years back about a bloodred pictured below. You were extremely helpful. Sadly that bloodred passed after her first clutch. Even worse, I only kept 1 real nice female and she is loose in my house I HOPE!

I realize now she was on the hypo side, I have a bloodred female of the darker phase. But I like that lighter hypo color. They seem hard to find. Adults anyway are hard to find.

I just wanted to thank you for past help and emails, and chat on KS. Also I'll probably call you one day soon, couple reasons, but mainly I need some books. First one for me lol.

talk later

tom

-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

concerning this. i know the subject of hybrids is controversial but this is a viable possibility in my opinion concerning the subject of blood reds, while pure blooded corns are a possibility also. florida is a main stay for feral exotic animals so it is still possible that the origional wild caught animals had genetics from another breed in them, maybe that is why it is a isolated location that contains these animals in the wild, or it is just a mutant gene that developed in that genepool for some evelutionary purpose. i dont know and that is why i started this DISSCUSION(sp) i am sorry for those who feel the need to argue but inevitably(sp) it was going to happen. i am pro hybrid and do believe that alot more corns out their have hybrids genes just do to the fact that the corn genetics do seem to dominate appearance wise within hybrids,especialy when you start getting into line bred f2 and 3 generations. so it can be a possibility but also may not be. im not so closed minded as some so it can go eitherway in my opinion.
adam
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.2 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

but remember, the original bloods were started in the late '70s and early '80s. Herps were not "mainstream" back then and herp keepers and collectors were a rather small, fairly close-knit group back then. There were not as many introduced herps in Florida back then, and still aren't too many in NORTH Florida - most are in south Florida. But anything is possible.

I also am not anti - hybrid, although I am not into them myself (except creamsicles - of course, emoryi were just subspecies of corns when creams were first started, although taxonomists have given them their own species now). However, many people really hate hybrids, so it is important to try (whenever possible) to know when lines are hybrids, so those who care can avoid them if they want to.

Baird's rat snakes were extraordinarily rare in the 80's (when bloodreds were first being selectively bred). In addition, people were not playing around with hybrids back then as they are now. I would find it to be very unlikely that anyone made this cross.

Tim

In addition, people were not playing around with hybrids back then as they are now.

Tim,
I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but corns were being hybridized with yellow rats as early as the 1930s. Heck even the man credited with establishing the first amelanistic corns in captivity in the early 1960's (Dr. Bern Bechtel) was crossing corns and yellow rats in the late 1950's. These hybrid breedings are documented in herp journals, I can post complete citations if anyone is interested.

As far as bloodreds being Baird's crosses, I certainly don't see it myself. Maybe Don at SMR can post pics of some of the corn x Bairds that he had in the past? From what I remember they were neat looking snakes, especially the F2 morph animals. I don't remember them looking like bloodreds though.

Dwight Good

For research, yes. But as a hobby, no. There were compartively few hobbyists breeding snakes, let alone hybrids, in the 1980s compared to today.

n/p

"As far as bloodreds being Baird's crosses, I certainly don't see it myself. Maybe Don at SMR can post pics of some of the corn x Bairds that he had in the past? From what I remember they were neat looking snakes, especially the F2 morph animals. I don't remember them looking like bloodreds though."

Obviously, I have been absent from this forum for a very long time. I miss it. Just too busy.

I have some pix of those hybrids in a drive that a data retrieval company is now working on. $1,000.00 later, I'm getting all my old pix back. Suffice it to say, I have invested in three 300 gb back-ups now. Anyway, in a couple of weeks those images will be back in my hands and I'll show everyone the Baird's X corn hybrids. They were produced by Kerry Touchstone and I bought his entire collection when he passed away. He was a dear friend and I know they have no other blood in them. They look nothing like the bloodreds. I know I have those pictures backed up on discs, but no time to find them right now.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

I hope you don't mind me posting this, Don, but here's your picture of the F2 Bairdi/Corn crosses you had posted years ago. I kept a copy as I thought they were quite unique animals.

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~~~Hurley

Connie,

Thank you very much. Those are the pix I would be looking for.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Cool new back up system, passive web back up, uses none of your own resources, no cost, but retrieval can be involved.

That was funny.
-----
Computers don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. (Dale Gribble)

AOL IM Mettzilla
I forgot my password for herpzilla, and gave a bad email,, major OOPS

1.3 Bearded Dragons
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) 0.2 1 MIA In the house I hope
1 baby creamcycle 0.1
2 Okeettes I think? 1.1 youngens
ochrocephala oratrix 0.0.1? Adult, and a killer!
ochrocephala auropalliata 0.0.1? Adult
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

I can't speak to the origin of the original bloodreds, except for the research I've done, and Kathy Love has already posted.

But I can speak to the new line of bloodreds, since I was the one who discovered that someone was breeding them, without even knowing what he had. I'm the one who clued Kathy and a few others into the new discovery.

The gentleman who is now breeding them did not even know that there was a difference between the bloodreds that he was breeding and the ones that others were breeding until I explained it to him. The nicest part of this discovery is that we can trace the line directly back to his original wildcaught snakes. The mother of mine, and of Kathy's, is an F1 female from wildcaught parents. The father of mine, and at least some of Kathy's is a wildcaught het bloodred. All of his wildcaughts were found within 1/4 mile of each other. I have photo documentation of all of them.

So, the new line, at least, is not hybrid. And I doubt very seriously that the original line was, either. As to Don Sonderberg's or Kathy's being hybrids; that's just silly....

Leslie