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Breeding Tip...

wetceal Mar 07, 2006 12:26 AM

Hey Everyone!

Things have been pretty busy lately (trying to keep up with the new pup and working on getting a new female Dobe too - YEA I can't WAIT! so I haven't had a chance to post much on the forums lately. I do try to read everyone's threads and I saw that Mike Taylor had posted about a boa breeding "tip" I had given him.

I saw that a couple of people were inquiring about this tip and it is definitely not a secret. However, I'm not 100% sure what Mike is referencing because we've chatted a bit over the last couple of months but I think he is referring to something I told him to do with females that had small follicles. If I have a female that has small follicles (anything under 10mm) and they don't seem to be growing at all, what I'll do sometimes is throw a male in with her but maybe something like one of my male Hypos that's just a super enthusiastic breeder who'll breed anything.

My males are stretched somewhat thin this year so I don't want to waste their time and energy on females with small follicles. I can't spare them when I have females that have follicle sizes that are 20 to 30+mm. So, what I'll do is put a lower end male in with the female. We have noticed that sometimes, just having a male in with them can get a female's follicles to grow. The stimulation from courting and copulation with a male seems to have a direct effect on follicle growth and size.

We'll continue to monitor this female's follicles and if we see them start to grow to anything of sizable significance (I'll usually consider anything with follicles that are 15mm or above as a decent chance for the season), I'll pull the "less valuable" male and throw in one of my higher end males. The higher end male will then court and copulate with the female because her follicles are now bigger and she is probably putting out some pretty good pheromones.

A snake can retain sperm but we were thinking of it and it seems to make sense that given the choice, a female will use the "freshest" sperm available to fertilize her eggs because that would give her the highest chance of successful fertilization. So if a female has retained sperm from the "less valuable" male and fresh sperm from the higher end male, it seems more likely that she would use the newer sperm. This is just a hypothesis and things may not necessarily work out this way every time. You definitely have a chance of having a litter with multiple sires by using two (or more) different males.

I also don't mix morph genetics meaning, I will use a dominant or co-dominant morph male (like a Hypo) to stimulate a normal female and replace him with another co-dominant or dominant male like a Jungle or a Motley. I would NOT use a Hypo male and then replace him with something simple-recessive like an Albino or a Sunglow (or vice versa) because if you do that, then you can not be sure what the normal babies are. The chances are the last male to copulate with the female will sire the babies (i.e. the Sunglow in this example) but you can't be absolutely sure of this. The Sunglow might have only sired a percentage of the litter and then you'll have the problem of not knowing if the normal babies are het. Albino or not.

We have done this in the past several times with Ball Pythons. Last season, Sean "backed up" a couple of our breeder females with our Super Pastel Jungle Ball Python. What I mean by this is that any female that he bred a Pastel Jungle to, he bred again to our Super Pastel Jungle male. On one clutch in particular, it was clearly evident that the Super Pastel was the one who sired the babies. The clutch consisted of 8 or 9 eggs which all turned out to be Pastels and they all took after the Super Pastel male in both coloration and temperament (he is especially nippy).

We also did it with our male Pinstripe Ball Python. We had a few females that were bred to a Pastel Jungle male early in the season when they still had relatively small follicles. Towards the end, right before their ovulation, Sean put in our male Pinstripe who copulated with the females. He did this with four females and three out of the four ended up as Pinstripe clutches instead of Pastels.

We also did something similar with a pair of 100% Het. Caramel Albino Ball Pythons. The female had incredibly small follicles so we didn't think she would go for us. She was also young so we weren't counting on anything. However, we had the male 100% Het. Caramel and since he's a het. we didn't have anything else to pair him up with. Previously, she had been in "limbo" where her follicles were not developing at all. So, we threw him in with her, he courted and copulated, and a couple of weeks later, her follicles began to develop. She ended up laying a very small clutch for us - three eggs. One went bad so we were left with two. Out of the two, we hatched one female Carmel Albino and one female 66% possible Het. Caramel Albino. Not bad for a young female with really small follicles!

So the tip above will really only help if you are working with an ultrasound machine and you are able to monitor follicular development in your females.

Let me know if anyone has any questions. And Mike - let me know if this was not what you were referring to LOL!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

Replies (19)

michaelburton Mar 07, 2006 01:40 AM

Could you please share a little more information on checking the follicles. Next year I would love to see a picture of you doing this. I have no idea where on the snake you check them and how you measure how big they are. Too bad they don't have a college course on breeding boas. Also, where is a good place to find an ultrasound machine? Thanks again for sharing your breeding tips.
Michael Burton

kasper22 Mar 07, 2006 08:08 AM

Hey Celia,

Thanks for the tips, I can sort of confirm that the female can/will use both spearms. Though my experince was on a very short time scale. I had a Super Salmon in with a het for albino, but I really wanted albinos, so I put in a het male that was very young (like 18 months). After a week of that het showing no interest and always being on the opposite side of the cage, I pulled him. About a week later she ovluated, and when she dropped, I had 30 hypos and 3 albinos, 1 normal. This doesn't disprove your theory, since the whole process took 3 weeks, but it does show that she can use the older spearm.
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Bryan Brown
Bryan Brown Reptiles

Locolizard Mar 07, 2006 09:06 AM

lol good luck with this season!

LeeBarrie Mar 07, 2006 09:25 AM

Several years ago Robyn Markland (Pro Exotics), Dr. Mark Seward & myself were discussing this very topic. Since courting males do stimulate follicle growth, we decided that if we were to get a big ugly super stud breeder male (one whose genes you would never want) we could perform a bit of surgery on him & give him a vasectomy. That way he could be used on multiple females to stimulate the follicles to grow to proper size for the desired male. Unfortunately we never had the time or inclination to give this a shot. I'd say that you would be a perfect candidate to give this a try.

Good luck,

Lee

ChrisGilbert Mar 07, 2006 11:35 AM

in finding a vet who would be able to perform the surgery.
You would not want to nuter (sp?) the male, as this would remove his testosterone production, but would only want to prevent him from being able to fertilize ova.

Cool theory.

LeeBarrie Mar 07, 2006 12:11 PM

Dr. Seward & I were going to do it. I also know several vets who would be interested in giving it a shot. Pretty simple surgery. Just like on humans. Cut & tie the tubes & all is well. Just have to find someone to donate a good male.

giantkeeper Mar 07, 2006 01:19 PM

condom on his tale ;O)
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Chris & Alliey
website
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ChrisGilbert Mar 07, 2006 01:52 PM

it probably would work (spurs might rip it).
If you aren't a boa breeder you won't understand

giantkeeper Mar 07, 2006 04:51 PM

never worked with boas so i'd have no clue...
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Chris & Alliey
website
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PGoss Mar 07, 2006 04:58 PM

With a name like Giantkeeper, you must keep monsters. I'll bet you keep corns. Maybe garters. Yup. I bet it's garters.

Phil Goss

P.S. Hopefully Chris didn't intend that the way it sounded. I think he knows better. Let's hope so... If not, he must be shunned to the ball forum. On with the shunning!

giantkeeper Mar 07, 2006 05:02 PM

Chris is obviously a very smart guy and will go a long way in life, but lets not confuse book knowledge or hear-say with the real thing. There is no substitute. ;O)
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Chris & Alliey
website
E-mail Us

ChrisGilbert Mar 07, 2006 07:31 PM

I didn't mean anything bad about it.

The topic was just an odd one if someone came up behind you to read what was going on. (Put a condom on his tail).

Sorry if it sounded bad
It was ment as something, ah forget it!

PGoss Mar 07, 2006 08:52 PM

I had no idea. I thought all these page filled binders I had were antiques. I had no idea they still printed books. I believe in 100% hear say. If it is said, then it must be true. I always listen most intently to the vendors at the local shows with the lowest tooth count and most fragrant body odor. Those guys really know what is going on. I mean they must because obviously they are so busy tending to their reptiles that they don't have time to brush their teeth or bathe!

Phil Goss

ChrisGilbert Mar 07, 2006 07:34 PM

lol.

Honestly though, that place can get kind of scary.

I didn't mean anything by it. The topic was one that herpers would understand. (Putting condoms on tails.)

PBM Mar 08, 2006 06:44 PM

Well, speaking of the sex drive....my moms nuetered since a pup dog jumped through a second story window(busted the screen) to get to a female in heat. Also, a vasectomy shouldn't affect the drive anyway. Take care

Paul

ChrisGilbert Mar 08, 2006 09:10 PM

I may have written incorrectly. Nuetering would inhibit the sex drive, but a vasectemy (sp?) would only prevent reproduction (the goal in this case).

Odd story Paul.

PBM Mar 08, 2006 10:43 PM

Yeah, pretty odd indeed! You'd think being neutered at a young age, rather than being neutered at say a year or two old, should've killed his drive. But, there was a female in heat running around the house for a few days and we came home one day and found that situation. Another ODD story, my mom had a cat that was neutered and at the time my youngest brother had some of those "pound puppy" stuffed dogs, and the cat used to "go to town" on that thing...would pin it to the floor and just go nuts on it. Maybe they have something in their water???? LOL, take care

Paul

ChrisGilbert Mar 09, 2006 08:31 AM

Very funny stories

PGoss Mar 07, 2006 04:04 PM

np

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