Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering what you all do when bringing in w/c specimen to you collection. I do not wish to introduce anything harmful to the rest of my collection , but I have a pair of pacific gophers that I would someday like to have in my snake room. they have been kept in the garage for the last 4 months and I see no evidence of external parasites. I have treated thier enclosures with provent a mite twice. Any suggestions as to what else I should do, and how long I should wait would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Casey
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RESIST MUCH AND OBEY LITTLE! Edward Abbey

Have you treated them for internal parasites as well?

my advice is not to breed them, captive bred is better for you and the environment. the offspring will probably act like wilds and could be picky eaters and be aggressive.
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

First off as far as quarantine is concerned, when we bring in wild caught to the collection. They are separated for 6 months. During that time they are trated for internal parasites and also watched for any signs of external problams. After that period and those precautions they are added to the collection. One othe thing I might mention is that if you observe any irregular stools etc. during that period be sure and have a fecal sample done by a vet of your choice. If you are going to have a vet do the worming etc. at the same time have one done also, it is cheap and will let you know a lot of different things.

On the second posters comment about the offspring being picky feeders etc. Normally the second generation animals are just like any other captive born animal, as long as the adult breeders have been cleaned up and properly prepared. Many times in order to keep bloodlines healthy and really diverse it is a good practice to add some wild caught blood into the breeding colony.

While it is indeed desirable to work with captive born and raised animals for many reasons which most of you know, at times there are good and viable reasons for working with wild caught animals. It is an extra amount of work, expensive and there are pitfalls in the practice that you should be aware of rpiro to embarking on that road.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms
Link

Thank you John. I'll do as you suggested and have the fecal sample done and keep my eye on thier stool. I normaly just glance at the gophers in the wild, but this one wass just different, she had a strange busy pattern. After searching for a few weeks I found a male much the same. Anyways that is why I am keeping them and my main concern was not harming my other pits, which by the way are all captive bred.
Thanks again and take care.
Casey
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RESIST MUCH AND OBEY LITTLE! Edward Abbey

Glad to hear you are so hooked on pits and care about your animals. I think it is very important for every herper whenever possible to experience the natural habitat of the animals he/she keeps. By experiencing the habitat first hand you can better understand your animals and the needs they have. Too often in our "captive only approach" to the hobby, I think a lot of folks lose the perspective of the wild habitat with all the variables that are encountered by these animals we all love. A gopher snake in a deli cup is by no means as impressive or educational as running into one in the wild.

Further at times removing a few of these wild animals does not do anything any harm as long as all the laws are followed and collectting is done with a responsible purpose. That is not to say that captive born animals are not easier and in a lot of cases better to work with than wild caughts are. Any of us older herpers can tell you stories about beautiful animals that were collectted and then failed to adjust to captivity and ended up dead because of it. And yes even pits sometimes were like that. It was heart breaking and a real waste for many years before captive breeding became as routine as it is now. Boy were we stupid back in those days.LOL

In any case enjoy all of your animals and please continue to be as concerned about thier health and well being as you are.

If we can be of any help do not hesitate to email us.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

Wow, that's one gorgeous snake in the pic you posted. What exactly is that?
Thanks,
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python (both gorgeous)
1.1 Ball Python (normals, he said proudly)
3.3 hatchling ball pythons (normals)
1.1 Ball Python (het for albino)(gonna make my own albino)
1.1 Corn Snake (Okeetee, Sunglow x Snow)
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake (Blairs)
1.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Pueblan Milksnake (normal)(Apricot)
1.1 Andean Milksnake (Inca phase) (het)
1.0 Bullsnake (normal)(my garbage disposal snake)
1.1 Bullsnake (red bulls)
0.1 Black Pine Snake need '05 mate!
1.1 Southern Snow Pine (snow)(red phase snow)
1.1 Mexican Pine snake
1.2 Checkered garter snakes (albino pair & het female)
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)(hates the herps,and not real crazy about the dog)

That is a wild caught Cape Gopher that is no longer producing ( my choice not hers), but is over 18 years old. Neat snake I have had for a long time.

John Cherry
Cherryville farms
Cherryville Farms

< my advice is not to breed them, captive bred is better for you and the environment. the offspring will probably act like wilds and could be picky eaters and be aggressive. >

I know you probably mean well, but I just can't resist replying to your assumptions.

Point 1) Why would you suggest not to breed the snakes? Wouldn't that produce captive bred? Please consider that all snakes have their origin from wild collected snakes.

Point 2) Why is this better for the environment? Do you believe gopher snake populations to be in danger? If so, what do you base this on?

Point 3) Why would you assume the offspring would be picky feeders and aggressive? Why would they be any different than any other hatchling snake?

Anyhow, no offence intended on my part. Its just that I can't recall ever seeing a post that was more misinformed and lacking merit on any level. Phil

I was going to say something but I think you wrapped it up there!

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Matt from Minnesota

Your welcome Matt. I just thought someone needed to say something. Phil

the post wasnt misinformed but not informed, yes i know i shouldnt post posts like that but i dont like when people take snakes out of the wild for sale on the pet trade (i know this isnt the case). when i see w/c i think of the large numbers of snakes( or herps in general) in foriegn countries being rounded up and sold in pet stores
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

my advice is not to breed them, captive bred is better for you and the environment. the offspring will probably act like wilds and could be picky eaters and be aggressive.

ALL CB animals started out this way. If they were to "act like wilds" there would be no benefit to CB. Since you say "captive bred is better" from what knowledge do you make the statement above?

It doesn't go both ways.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I would have to disagree with that. The only pits I keep are Pacific Gophers. I've had babies from WC adults, and they were as docile and good feeding as any specimen from CB parents that I've ever seen.
Robert

If I was you I'd have fecal work done to check for internal parasites.

Anyone that has experienced the keeping of a wide variety of snakes that are wild caught will have experienced many of the following:

1. Animals that are USUALLY more nervous.
2. Are usually loaded with internal and/or external parasites as a general rule.
3. Are generally less receptive to handling and captive conditions.
4. Have less vibrant colors and/or patterns than selectively bred captivelines.
5. Animals that are more prone to be stressed and therefore are just not up to stuff when it comes to captive life. Stress is the number one reasons reptiles fail to thrive in captivity and it manifests itself in many ways( non-feeding, constant agitation etc.)

I could go on and on, but I think you will get my point.

Caprive bred animals while some may have some of the above problems are generally a viable alternative with very few of the nagatives listed above.

Additonally while the main culprit in the reduction of most reptile populations is habitat degradation, any diminished demand on wild populations can only be a positive thing.

Commercial collecting is almost a thing of the past except in a few areas and even then the usual destination is the retail pet shops. As higher quality animals are desired by the general public the demand for wild caught animals is diminishing each year. But is still something that should be really monitored and restricted if it causes harm to any population of reptiles or any other wildlife for that matter.

Limited collection of wild caught animals is something I hope is never completely lost as I see it as something we all must have from time to time to keep our captive populations viable. Additionally I wish every herper could experience the finding of a wild reptile like what they keep at home at least once in thier lives. The impact would be great I believe.

Personally each year I spend probally 10 - 30 days in the field road riding and looking for herps. But in the last five years I have only taken 4 animals out of the wild and in each instance they were for friends that needed them for captive breeding programs. Those days in the field are some of the best of the year and rival egg hatching days which is saying a lot.

With all the above said, yes captive born animals do in most cases make better pets and captives. But there is a place in the hobby for wild caught aniamls as long as it does not impact the wild populations they came from and is done with a real sense of need.

Just My opinions,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

n/p
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

If you caught them in the wild, that's where they should be returned to, do not introduce them to your captive bred specimans. Do the right thing and put them back where you found them.

Why is that the right thing? I am confused why some would view field collecting a snake as if it was some great evil. Snakes like other components of the environment are a renewable resource if properly managed. I only wish more concerned hobbyists would take the trouble to combat the real threats to wild herps such as habitat degradation, destruction and fragmentation.

I see many hundreds of snake each year and maybe collect a pair or two at most. Some years not even that. This is personal choice though and if I collected more than this it would have minimal impact on snake populations. I do believe in responsible collecting and abiding by the law. IMO the collecting issue is a hot topic for those that are removed from actual snake populations as they occur in the wild and their mind sets are more of an emotional response than one based in reality. Wild caught snakes are not for everyone and often not the best choice for the casual herp enthusiast that is looking for a pet snake. For more experienced hobbyist that are willing to take the extra measures needed to work with locality animals that interest them, sometimes a wild caught snake is the only choice.

I thought John Cherry gave a nice summary of the WC vs CB issue. There can be drawbacks but at the same time the rewards can be great.One problem in modern herpetoculture is a lack of availability of quality captive bred locality snakes. Many types are out there but their numbers pale in comparison to the veritable hords of man made designer morphs in the market. There is nothing wrong with morph's or generic non-locale snakes, but they are not for everyone. Anyhow, just my perspective. Phil

I am very concerned about habitat destruction and other things that affect snake populations as well as other animals. As a matter of fact, it has been going on in my area for a long time now, and its really starting to make me angry. You can't possibly tell me that collecting wild snake for pets is alright while destroying their habitat is not. You may say that you only collect a pair of snakes a year, maybe not even that much, but what if everyone decided to collect a pair of snake a year. All snakes would suffer in the wild from this. One of the main causes of snakes declining in areas is over collecting for the pet trade. What you are doing is supporting that when you do the same thing. This can be just as destructive to snake populations as habitat loss and other factors. When there are captive bred specimans available, choose them instead of taking an animal out of their natural home in the wild. How would you like it if you could roam free and then suddenly be captured only to live the rest of your life in a cage. Or, how would you like to be taken away from the place you call home and placed somewhere you are unfamiliar with and don't like. Captive bred snakes don't know any better and are better accustomed to live in a captive situation. Should you let a captive bred animal who has been fed by you and living in a cage its whole life into the wild, of course not, it would not survive. It's the same thing taking one from the wild and introducing it to captivity. Try comparing the pros and cons of captive bred vs. wild caught as well. I think you will realize a big difference. People who catch snakes for pets instead of purchasing one from a breeder should stop doing this.

Maybe you are misunderstanding the point I am trying to make. It is sometimes difficult to convey exactly what the message is on forums like this. Anyhow, some responses on my behalf to what you wrote.

< You can't possibly tell me that collecting wild snake for pets is alright while destroying their habitat is not. >

What I am trying to relate is the perceived threat from recreational take is insignificant when compared to the real dangers herps are faced with. Habitat destruction, degradation and fragmentation.

< One of the main causes of snakes declining in areas is over collecting for the pet trade. >

I would challenge you to find even a single scientific investigation that supports this statement. Good luck!

< This can be just as destructive to snake populations as habitat loss and other factors. >

Again, this is simply not the case. This isn't just my opinion on this subject but rather the cummulative result of scores of field studies by untold numbers of field researchers. The selective taking of a few snakes from the habitat equates to a drop of water in a bath tub as compared to the real reasons for herp declines.

< How would you like it if you could roam free and then suddenly be captured only to live the rest of your life in a cage. >

This is clearly an emotional response on your behalf on what you perceive a snake must be thinking. Attaching human emotions to what a snake "feels" is hardly making a strong case.

< Should you let a captive bred animal who has been fed by you and living in a cage its whole life into the wild, of course not, it would not survive. It's the same thing taking one from the wild and introducing it to captivity. >

I agree that a snake that has been in captivity long term should not be released into the wild for a number of reasons. The second part of your statement I can tell you simply is not true. I have successfully kept and bred wild collected snakes for years where they have thrived under my care.

< Try comparing the pros and cons of captive bred vs. wild caught as well. I think you will realize a big difference. People who catch snakes for pets instead of purchasing one from a breeder should stop doing this. >

Don't get me wrong. I'm a firm believer in captive bred snakes and I can assure you I have produced my share over the years. For the average hobbyists I would recommend buying captive bred specimens if at all possible. Sometimes the snake a hobbyist is interested in simply is not available through commercial venues. Again in these instances field collecting specimens is the only viable alternative. When this is the case I recommend the hobbyist spend some time in the field and find their own stock. I can guarentee that by doing so that person will gain both a deeper insight and appreciation of what they have in their cages. My thoughts, Phil

Everybody has their views on these things. I've expressed mine and you've expressed yours. I don't think either of us will be able to change each others minds. However, I can give you a good example of over collecting of snakes for the pet trade affecting the wild population. Hundreds, even thousands of Ball Pythons are caught every year and shipped over to the United States from Africa for pet shops to sell. The Ball Python numbers are declining because of this. Luckily, most hobbyists with Ball Pythons are breeding them and especially with Ball Pythons, it is getting more and more popular. Hopefully this limits the amount people collect to sell to pet shops. These are my views on this matter.

First let start off by saying what I think both of you are saying and by the way I completely agree with is when it is possible to buy a captive born animal they are the best possible choice for most keepers, new or old.

Second I agree that in past years and even today in the case of some animals such as tortises, turtles, limited habitat animals and even a few common snakes ( such as Ball pythons) collecting has been detrimental to local populations.

We have all seen it in some areas with certain reptiles. A good example is the total destruction (rock flipping)I have seen out in California in the quest for mt. kings, in La. in the quest for La. Milks (bark stripping) and in Florida and Texas with the gassing of tortise etc. holes for rattlers etc.

These type practices are without a doubt reprehensible and something we should all be ashamed of when we see it and let it go without negative for the people responsible.

Additionally let me flatly state that for 75% of the reptile/amphibians in the USA commercial collection should not be allowed. But there are some exceptions and thsoe excpetions are identified by biologist and professionals on a regular basis.

I can also say that recreational collecting does not effect the wild populations as a whole which many have feared in the past.

I base this on a number of sources, but one particular source would my experience with the Texas Dept. Of Fish & Wildlife. Here in my state of Texas I served on a study group for Non-Game species. This was conducted by the Texas Parks & WildLife Dept. Regulations were imposed and licenses required for three years running, part of the regulations was to report and catalog the numbers of animals collectted by herpers and non-herpers alike. What we found after compiling all the data for the three years was that some species such as rattlers a few turtles of several dfferent kinds were being impacted by the total take from things such as rattlesnake round ups and meat collecting. The rattlers and a few other species that we found to be impacted by harvest were left on a protected list and even today studies are continuing to determine proper management of them.

The rest of the reptiles in the State were de-listed because the take was so small, that the wildlife biologist for the state and the state herptologist felt the wild population were not being effected. This was great news for herpers in the State of Texas and for the general public also.

Don't get me wrong there are still some animals that need protection such as the Texas Desert Tortises and the Texas Indigo as examples. Those were afforded protection and special handling. Plus the others I mentioned above are still be studied as I said. In the next few years we should have comphrehensive further management of them.

Our state address things in the following manner and I like the approach. If an animal whatever it is a reptile, fish, mammal, or bird is a renewable resource that can allow people to utilize the resource without damaging the wild population then they allow it. If taking for any reason hurts the wild population and its ability to be there for future generations they do not allow it. Additionally there are several steps in between with things such as limited take or certain areas of allowed take and in other areas no take. This makes good sense to me.

Bottom Line for me is that responsible use of our wildlife resource I have no problem with . Additionally in some cases it is best for the wildlife, as it brings to the forefront the management of that particular species. And history has proven when people experience the animals they keep in the wild they have a more complete knowledge of that animals needs and whats. A winning situation for both the "Keeper and The Kept" to coin a pharse from one of our departed brothers.

On the other hand when it comes to captive born reptiles as versus wild caught reptiles for me, I will always choose the captive borns hands down. For all the reasons plus many more that I referred to in my previous post. To carry this one step further I do not participate as a vendor at any show or expo that does not have a captive bred only policy in effect. But there are cases where a wild caught animal is the only or best option ( genetics etc.) and then I have no problem with the taking of that animal.

Enough of my rambling,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

I agree with what you are saying John. I should have quantified my statement for the sake of clarity when it comes to harvesting herps. What I was more referring to was the present example, the gopher snakes in question that the original poster brought up and othet standard so called pet snakes. Kings, rats, corns, milks etc.. Basically widespread abundant species that are the usual target for those inclined to capture as pets. A case could be made that some species could be vulnerable to over collection. Most notably species with a limited range such as some of the montane rattlesnakes or those that may be habitat specialist such as the bog turtle.

We monitor herp populations here in Ky in conjunction with the dept of fish and wildlife, and without a doubt, our experience has been habitat loss and fragmentation is the culprit for those species with declining populations. I do oppose commercial collecting and view that in a different light.I like to encourage our young people to cultivate an interest in our native herps so that as adults they have an appreciation for them. I really believe the place to learn about herps is in the woods and not in front of the TV watching Animal Planet. I have seen many arm chair naturalist tell me about how everything is doom and gloom in our fields and forest, yet we see more snakes now than ever. I appreciate guys like you that offer a nice variety of captive bred locality snakes. I just wish there were more like you lol! Phil

I appreciate the kudo's, I too agree that one of the best things about the herping hobby is having youngsters experience the animals we all love in the wild. Then they better appreciate the captives we all keep and hopefully become advocates for the preservation of them in the wild. The experience of seeing a bull in the mesquite brush of South Texas, an alterna crawling on a rock cut, a timber rattler at a fall den are all something I hope my great grandchildren can experience.

In order for that to happen continued education is a requirement for all in this hobby in my opinion. This includes dispelling the sometime ill-concieved notions of well meaning but mis-informed people that sometimes mean well but do not have the real picture of how things work with wild populations.Continued study and planned management is the key to the survival of these wonderful animals in todays ever changing world.

I also agree with you that Steve Irwin and his type are not the ones I want teaching the next generation of herpers how to handle and treat wild reptiles. Hopefully though maybe even he serves a purpose in raising the level of awareness of the general public about these animals.

Anyway things have come a long way from back in the days when herpers were considered wierd people and they are becoming more mainstream every day. This is a good thing for all cncerned.

Good Luck and stay in touch,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

Thats long enough as long as theres no parasites and they eat fine and they get along with other snakes your good to go