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I guess this pic is both interesting and horrible for indigo lovers. Check out this guys pics documenting cannibalism in wild easterns -

eastern indigo cannibalism

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

My hunch is that the first meal for many an Eastern are the runts in the litter.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

i may be wrong but at a glance that kinda looks like a black racer getting swallowed there. but speaking of cannibals.......

NICE YT!!!

sorry bob, i just noticed your ? below. no uni's this year. i have a new rule around here: 1 dry clutch a season due to the considerable difficulty & time involved getting babies started off right. here's this year's project......

Even better! Please put me down for at least 1.1 YT's this year. Seriously!
Is that the male I sent to you?
Good luck Dan!!!

yeah, that's him bob. he's now twice my length & weighs almost as much as me. he's a scary individual, thanks alot! haha..........:>/

He got huge! Nice looking snake.
I definitely would like babies from that breeding!
Hope to hear they hooked up soon!
Good luck.

Although there's no doubt that some cannibalism takes place in nature, it is probably rare with indigos (having seen many interactions with them in a captive setting). At first glance, I thought the indigo was eating a racer; I'll have to see if I can do some scale counts (but the scales did look a tad big unless it was one very large racer). It's also possible that this was a staged shot. I know of several professional wildlife photographers, who shall remain nameless, who stage shots all of the time and make people think that they stumbled across them in the wild. Just something to consider.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I guess this pic is both interesting and horrible for indigo lovers. Check out this guys pics documenting cannibalism in wild easterns -
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>>eastern indigo cannibalism
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>>Chris Harrison
>>San Antonio, Texas
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

yeah, i noticed right after i posted that the scales of th victim look pretty big & count pretty low. dunno, it just looks like a racer but it could be an opaque couperi too i guess.....

Robert Bruce left his Hatchlings together and after their energy reserves were gone they started to canibalize each other. Some of them ate each other right off the bat so that demonstrates that they are simply oportunistic number one. And my second point is if they are pre disposed to this behavior in captivity then they most certainly will do it in nature. Third point is that there may be populations that have more of a snake eating prefrence where as others may be pre disposed to frogs so I will disagree with you on this point.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

i would think as the snakes hatch they would have that dispersal behavior...like they start to split right away, before their reserves are used....you see this behavior with most other colubrids when they hatch...take the top off the shoebox ..espicially after that natal shed...zip..zap zoom them little dudes are everywhere....that would be a natural deterent to cannabilism....what happened with that bruce guy was a keeper faux pas

I have found multiple hatchlings under tins and wood over the years. How many times do the hatchling indigo cross paths when looking for a good hide spot? I still think eating a stragler happens in the nest from time to time. It only needs to be one snake that does it for that paticular gene to be passed on. There is an underground world we know very little about. Only the strong and smart survive. If hatchling Indigo eat other snakes as neonates and are known canables then it is not a strech to assume there are some that do this.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

If you are basing your "findings" on "Mr. Bruce", I would be very skeptical of your remarks. First, its plain stupid to allow captive neonates to cannibalize each other and I truly feel that is a sign of poor husbandry rather than a disposition for this kind of behavior. I have kept multiple indigo hatchlings together (on several occasions in my earlier years in breeding easterns; I no longer raise them in small groups) and I never observed this phenomena. Can it happen? I suppose but when it happens often in a captive setting, you gotta wonder about issues such as overcrowding, inadequate feeding schedules, etc. Second, you are making assumptions on natural behaviors that are not based on any real scientific evidence. Evidence does suggest that these animals cover vast expanses of land but that only pertains to adults; we have very little in the way of field observations for hatchlings (my guess is that they do NOT typically share the same refugia). You mentioned that if one snake eats another that it passes on that gene; once again, we don't know if that behavior is genetically linked or brought on by some unknown physical force for this particular species....how many indigo-indigo interactions have we been able to observe in their natural habitat.

Just my .02.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I have found multiple hatchlings under tins and wood over the years. How many times do the hatchling indigo cross paths when looking for a good hide spot? I still think eating a stragler happens in the nest from time to time. It only needs to be one snake that does it for that paticular gene to be passed on. There is an underground world we know very little about. Only the strong and smart survive. If hatchling Indigo eat other snakes as neonates and are known canables then it is not a strech to assume there are some that do this.
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>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Mr Bruce was one "small" piece of the puzzle. If you want to throw tha baby out with the bath water then you will live your life within the confines of your mind, think what you want.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I only have one observation spot here in Texas but these overwinter in a large colony of many sized individuals. Granted, I think this is a funnel to an excellent brumation/mating spot, but i have observed a pair mating and another pair on opposite sides of this creek/tumbledown formation with a 2 1/2' and a neonate in the same rockpile all in the same winter. Water was key as well as the frog and fish and cotton rats found here. There were no lizards or turtles observed and only one Gulf coast ribbon has been observed in three years. I've seen a lone yearling fishing for catfish in a drainage ditch and he retreated under a fallen tree. So some dispurse and others stay in a colony. Cannibals? Probably in the wild it happens. In captivity? Certainly, if allowed. Anything will eat each other if food is withheld! DOH!
Todd Hughes

Thank you for the hard facts.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Those are the kinds of observations that have some validity. It still leaves us with very little to go by, however, as it relates specifically to neonates as it sounds like you are seeing mostly larger individuals in these communal refugia. It's always interesting to note behaviors between two very closely related species.

>>I only have one observation spot here in Texas but these overwinter in a large colony of many sized individuals. Granted, I think this is a funnel to an excellent brumation/mating spot, but i have observed a pair mating and another pair on opposite sides of this creek/tumbledown formation with a 2 1/2' and a neonate in the same rockpile all in the same winter. Water was key as well as the frog and fish and cotton rats found here. There were no lizards or turtles observed and only one Gulf coast ribbon has been observed in three years. I've seen a lone yearling fishing for catfish in a drainage ditch and he retreated under a fallen tree. So some dispurse and others stay in a colony. Cannibals? Probably in the wild it happens. In captivity? Certainly, if allowed. Anything will eat each other if food is withheld! DOH!
>> Todd Hughes
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Indigos eat other Indigos (very well documented over the years)
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

You go Bil!! when all is said and done,that's what it comes down to...Indigos are oppurtunistic eaters and if they happen upon an Indigo they think they can overpower they can and will eat it..Are they finicky about the snakes they eat? So they will eat Rattlers,Kings and other snakes,but not one of their own kind?

"Nope Can't eat him..he looks just like me"

why can't the pic just be what it is?

I am not disputing that much of what was said....however, please give me some SPECIFIC citations/observations from herp literature as I would like to add that to my pool of knowledge. Going through my files, I cannot find specific field observations of indigos cannibalizing indigos (neonates); sure, it probably happens, but we've deviated off course a bit in my initial question about specific behaviors relating to wild neonates - not adults. Anyway, if you can provide some references that would be greatly appreciated.

>>Indigos eat other Indigos (very well documented over the years)
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>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hypothesis, here are my thoughts Rob,
In captivity we scent things to get the youngsters started. Once they key on the object scented they lock in and eat the item unscented after a period of time and have that as a reference point. That has been documented by more herpers over more years than any other subject so you will have to agree. If and I say if a neonate was to eat another neonate which we could both agree would happen from time to time in the wild then in MY opinion you set the stage for an adult that has a taste for Indigo flesh. If you do not think a neonate would eat another one in the wild then consider this what would happen if the nest chamber was blocked by a tunneling rodent or the mother to the eggs? If you answer the scenario honestly then you will realize that the wild conditions sometimes will be just as harsh if not harsher then the most deplorable captive conditions. So I will re iterate my original statement in MY opinion the first meal a neonate will get may be a clutch mate.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Just a few thoughts,ruminations,and of course rants. . . .

On the subject of cannibalism in Eastern Indigos.

Of COURSE they are cannibalistic and also eat other types of snakes. Very well documented.

After having produced and raised up a healthy number of Couperi offspring over the years, I have NEVER experienced ANY cannibalism in the neonates that I produced.

Not only that..but they OFTEN **REFUSED*** to feed on OTHER..SMALLER snakes..i.e. healthy gartersnakes, or cornsnakes.

So much for cannibalsim run amuck.

BUT........

You should realize that upon their being BORN, I segregated EACH Eastern Indigo neonate from its siblings. In individual containers, with heat and shelter. These snakes are just to hard to produce and to rare to TRUST to the chance that they MIGHT eat each other, not just from an economic point of view(loss of potential revenue), but from a rather "paternal" stewardship point of view.

Leave them alone together for any length of time? Im sorry,
I agree with Rob here, I would stress out just from the thought of it. Keep in mind that I am likely to check the neoates TWICE a day, every day, just to make sure they are"ok"

Call it overkill if you will. But have had 0 losses due to cannibalism over the years because of it.

On the other hand I have known people that have trusted their ADULT couperi to cohabitate with each other for a few hours, only to find out that they had one well fed couperi that they came home too.

It all depends how much you value the animals and how much risk you are willing to take. I value them immensley, so risk isnt a thought that I ever entertain with them.

So...yes they are cannbalistic

No..they dont ALWAYS eat each other(Or other snakes)

No....I wouldnt risk it.

And, yes it looks like a RACER gong down that couperi throat in the picture, but I cant be certain. Im not going to say its staged, I dont know the guy that took it.

Sincerely,

Fredrick Albury

First a side note: I found it odd that a hatchling Indigo could eat a sibling without dieing but I hear that is not uncommon with snake eaters. It is now documented that they can eat and digest siblings with no ill effects. The first benefit I see is the weaker gene is removed from the equasion. The second benefit I can see is survival in times of limited prey items I would imagine a neonate that consumes a clutchmate will have considerable energy stores to make it to the next season. Third benefit as I see it is only agile and vigorous animals will survive in that environment. The downside to the equasion is that the population may be sparse if this behavior dominated the non canibles.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I completely agree with you; that's probably why we don't see a lot of "runt" indigos in the wild. I think we are on the same page and you hit everything on the head. I just wish we had more field observational evidence to support some of these hypothesis.

>>First a side note: I found it odd that a hatchling Indigo could eat a sibling without dieing but I hear that is not uncommon with snake eaters. It is now documented that they can eat and digest siblings with no ill effects. The first benefit I see is the weaker gene is removed from the equasion. The second benefit I can see is survival in times of limited prey items I would imagine a neonate that consumes a clutchmate will have considerable energy stores to make it to the next season. Third benefit as I see it is only agile and vigorous animals will survive in that environment. The downside to the equasion is that the population may be sparse if this behavior dominated the non canibles.
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>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Wow!
What a brutal beast!

Reminds me of some mythical Dragon, or maybe the new Godzilla.

Jeeze - what if, instead of 8 ft, these guys got to 18 ft?

Run for you're lives!!!
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1.1 Creamsicle Cornsakes
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake

In regards to my picture posted here without my knowledge. It is not a staged shot. My name is Rick Cowen, I live in Bartow Florida. I am a Gen. Mgr. for a fast oil change company. not a photographer by trade. I took many pictures of the behavior I encountered last week. I was made aware of this Forum by someone posting to my Gallery, and I thank that person. If anybody would like to see more pics of this day, I would be glad to share them. I'm not a Snake Hobbyist. but, I will take their pics if I come across them in my travels. I have very little knowledge of Snake behavior, I will leave that to the experts. I am however a lover of nature and all its wonderful forms, and I love to take photos of such. I did not mean to spark a debate by posting these photos, if anybody here would like to see more, I will add them to my Gallery, please, if anybody would like to use any of my pics in the future, I would appreciate a please and thank you at least, I dont sell my pics, but I dont give them away either. Rick Cowen.

Thank you very much for being nice about us debating over and using your photos. Do you have a shot of the indigos in the early stage of the incounter? Can you post one (Please). Thank you again............Bill
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

No problem Bill, I may have been wrong in my initial statement of how the picture was being used, and for that I apologize. The snake actually crossed my path while I was taking pictures, he already had the snake in his mouth and was working on swallowing it. I will post several if you like, they may not be the best shots in the world though, he wasnt exactly posing.

Bill, it will be easier to post them to my Gallery. I will do so in a few minutes.
Rick. please let me know what you think.

The pic wasn't posted. A link was posted directing folks to YOUR website....there is nothing wrong with that is there?

You are absolutely right and I apologise for my initial reaction. I had to go back and look at how it was set up. I guess what got me upset, wasnt so much that it was linked to my gallery, it was the the statement that it might have been faked or staged. I work very hard to take the best pics I can, and when somebody questions my work, I get defensive. Justifiably so.

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I wouldn't take it that way, he's just that way.

Glad you came to the site Rick.

As you can see, there are many lovers of things natural here - especially things with shiny black scales!

Your photos are fascinating and document an unusual behavior of wild indigos. I'm no expert, but this is the first time I know of that this behavior has been documented.

You may be able to get a paper out of this!
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1.1 Creamsicle Cornsakes
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake

You are very welcome. I had no idea this was such a unique capture, pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean when you say, get a paper out of it?

Thank you saw um That looks like a large snake how long would you say it was?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Glad you liked them, I'm 6 foot 4 inches, the snake was longer than I am tall, closer to the 7 foot range, if not bigger from head to tail. It was an impressive sight.

Yes the snake in the picture looked massive, well done thank you for the info.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Get a paper, as in, publish to a scientific journal or maybe an online publication.

From the interest shown here, there must be a professional herpetologist that would be interested. I can't speak for the others here (or anyone else for that matter - LOL), but this is the first and only photographic documentation of wild Indigo cannabalism that I know of.

Man, you could be almost famous!

John D
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1.1 Creamsicle Cornsakes
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake

Yeah I love naturals too, BIG NATURALS !!!!!!

. . . fattenin' up an ol' Indijoe! Used to feed them and rattlesnakes to my Errebennus a long time ago . . .

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-