Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read all the posts about the probably wc and european raised pancakes coming in and am thinking about getting some to try to set up a breeding project. Some of the larger pancakes ive seen for sale are probably gravid and seem to be a good place to start. i have had tortoises before but not bred them, i breed snakes and lizards primarily. if i were to pick up some gravid adults, how should they be set up to lay? what kind of substrate, and should i give them a moist area or box for them? and how moist should the substrate be? also, whats the preferred incubation temperature and are there any special tips for pancake eggs? thanks

To sum it up in a nutshell."CB European Imports" are just wild caught animals smuggled into the US and sold as CB animals from dishonest people.Think about it, no one in the US would sell their true CB Adults for $500.00. Imagine what the people selling these animals in the states are paying, not to mention the shipping they have to pay to get them here.
If you dont want to have some expensive ashtrays in the next couple of months, buy true CB in the USA animals. Just ask the people with the ashtrays compliments of all the "CB in Europe Indian Stars" from a while back.
Good luck,
Scott
PS,
I am not a Pancake Tortoise Breeder, but I am tired of reading the BS ads on KS

I just posted this on another site and it is very relavent here so I will cut and paste and put it here for you:
YES YES there is alot of contradicting resources on this amazing species. I personally own 11. A Proven trio a young adult 1.3 and the rest are yearlings(about 3". ONE THINGS IS ALL OF MINE ARE CB USA! There are alot of Pancakes that have flooded the market due to what I believe to be an impossibly legal way. I believe these were brought in to someone in CA and then dispersed to larger distributors at unbelievable prices. All mine have slight pyramiding which is a commonly seen trait in CB animals. BUT THERE ARE SOME PERFECT CB animals out there. Do research on these animals. Are they full adults with drab shells etc? they may be older. Be careful. I know of a very reptuable breeder in FLA who has a breeder group in a central state and he sells off thier surplus animals at reasonable prices. Email me privately and I will get you in contact with him, but again be careful. With that said Obviously I haven't perfected my husbandry issues (with the pyramiding) but mine are not bad, they look like REPTILES MAG Dan Pearsons article on The pancake tortoise this month(which the one in there is amazing)(the article is very helpful as well)
I keep all of mine completely dry, the babies have access to water ALL THE TIME and are kept on now rabbit pellets, the young adults and adults get water every second day left in their enclosure overnight.
The babies are soaked every 2-3days and the others are once a week.
I have my adults on dry mulch with many hiding spaces (this is very important), the adults are in an aquatic waterland tub! Yes I said it an aquatic tub, it works very well for them especially with the raised "Land" part with the ramp, plus the optional lid is a great way to keep them put. I have their nesting box up there their food dish and their water dish when available as well. I bought concrete pathers they are like 12 X 6 stacked in different ways for them to hide in climb on and wear down their nails. Cool end stays at around 74 during the day about 70 at night and the hottest part is about 90-92.
I feed them every day(yearlings) to everyother day(Adults) greens greens greens. Fruits can be offered with extreme moderation like a treat once a month(Tomatoes too). I feed primarily dandelion greens Kale, Romaine green leaf and red leaf during the winter, summertime comes law clippings and insecticide free weeds, the yearlings get vitamins every other feeding. Adults get it twice a week. Everyone either has a toroise block or cuddle bone in their enclosure
Make sure you have a nic e light, like the powers sun or zoo meds uvb heat.,
Mine love to copulate after a soak or after a meal. This is definitely a tortoise worth owning. Feel free to contact me with any questions, I am no expert but this is one of my favorites!
Enjoy

>>Think about it, no one in the US would sell their true CB Adults for $500.00.

Scott, you hit the nail on the head! I was offered $1100 CASH in person for one of my CBB adult females and I flat out refused!!!

I have sold a couple young CBB males in the $500 range since I did have so many at one point. But, females? NO way!!! Never. Maybe for $3000 each as I could buy some baby Radiata IF I really felt like making a sacrifice on a female CBB adult Pancake.

>>If you dont want to have some expensive ashtrays in the next couple of months, buy true CB in the USA animals. Just ask the people with the ashtrays compliments of all the "CB in Europe Indian Stars" from a while back.

Some will make it... a number will likely wind up exactly how you just stated.

>>I am not a Pancake Tortoise Breeder, but I am tired of reading the BS ads on KS

I am, and I'm also tired. There are obviously a number of CBB animals, but there are a LOT of imports right now being offered as CBB (in my opinion of course). VERY sad if you ask me... I guess the USFWS either turned a blind eye once again or was just plain outsmarted on this one!

Matt

1100 cash for an adult pancake and you refused? Unless it was for purely sentimental reasons, that is definitely not the norm. On kingsnake there are wonderful trios and pairs for $1350. You definitely cannot buy a radiated baby with 1100.

>>1100 cash for an adult pancake and you refused? Unless it was for purely sentimental reasons, that is definitely not the norm.

People who sell 'proven breeders' for baby prices are not selling proven breeder. A proven female Pancake is worth about $3000 to me here. Same as a proven Green Tree Python, etc...

> On kingsnake there are wonderful trios and pairs for $1350.

Yep, not proven breeders, etc... probably questionable animals. Again, I'd NEVER fathom selling a proven adult CBB female for probably less than 3 grand.

> You definitely cannot buy a radiated baby with 1100.

I don't own Radiata, but you might be surprised what they can be had for and how many there are really out there.

Matt

Wonderful trios which will be dead soon.
Its funny, I e-mailed a bunch of people selling these "proven" Pancakes, and amazingly no one has CB babies for sale or never did.
I guess they weren't in the wild with them when they laid thier eggs.
lol
PS
$1,100 is a realistic price for a hatchling Radiated.

Regardless, $3000 for a CB proven female? Dream on! Not even a burmese junvenile is worth that much, let alone a radiated or other high-end tort.

THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE WORTH TO ME!!! Get it? Sorry to shout, but that is the value IF I were to part with one. Three to five years of production is the typical 'value' I associate with this (or ANY proven animal I would part with). Say, 6 babies over the course of a few years @ $500 each = $3000. Make sense now? A Burmese proven adult would make $3000 grand seem like peanuts and adult radiata???!!! I won't even bother with that one... Okay, lets agree to disagree about MY opinion.

Thanks,

Matt

>>Regardless, $3000 for a CB proven female? Dream on! Not even a burmese junvenile is worth that much, let alone a radiated or other high-end tort.

>>Wonderful trios which will be dead soon. Its funny, I e-mailed a bunch of people selling these "proven" Pancakes, and amazingly no one has CB babies for sale or never did. I guess they weren't in the wild with them when they laid thier eggs.

Hahahahaha... Sad, but likely TRUE!

GREAT pic! More CBB Stars are always a good thing in this world. Wanna sell the PROVEN adult female who laid those eggs to me for about $1000 now?!?! I think that's a fair price for a proven Star adult female... j/k.

Matt

According to your "value system," and logic, a female proven Russian would be worth about $3000, because the babies sell for 100 each, 5 eggs per clutch, 5-6 clutches per year.

That's the most ridiculous way of calculating worth I've ever heard. Why don't you factor in all the eggs she'll lay during her lifetime while you're at it?

...that we will simply agree to disagree on an animals worth.

>>According to your "value system," and logic, a female proven Russian would be worth about $3000, because the babies sell for 100 each, 5 eggs per clutch, 5-6 clutches per year.

Yeah, I'd agree with that logic. Obviously you feel this is a contest of sorts and I'll conceed... you WON! Hooray. You don't seem to have much as much value for an animal that's a proven breeder and I do. The end.

>>That's the most ridiculous way of calculating worth I've ever heard. Why don't you factor in all the eggs she'll lay during her lifetime while you're at it?

I just might and UP the price a few grand more with your 'novel' idea! Man, I never thought of that one. Thanks! I'll be rich soon enough selling proven breeder Pancakes for 10 grand or more.

Matt
p.s. - Just curious why you place a lower value on them (if you have 'proven breeder' Pancakes at all)? Or are you one of the folks involved with trying to dump a TON of WC Pancakes for peanuts?

No, as profitable as the black market may be for illegal animals, I'm simply not in that genre of business. I'd be the wrong guy to talk to. In fact, the only tortoises I own are burmese stars, which are MUCH more rare and valuable/expensive than pancakes, and those aren't wild-caught either.

>>No, as profitable as the black market may be for illegal animals, I'm simply not in that genre of business. I'd be the wrong guy to talk to.

That's a GOOD thing to hear!

>> In fact, the only tortoises I own are burmese stars, which are MUCH more rare and valuable/expensive than pancakes, and those aren't wild-caught either.

Again, another good thing (not being WC). Expensive yes, valuable? That is purely subjective as is my 'worth' of Pancakes. But, on that note if my Pancakes made me $75,000 dollars last season and your Stars made you $10,000, I'd say clearly my Pancakes are considerably more 'valuable'.

Bottom line: An animal is 'worth' what YOU think it's worth (not what someone tells you or what a 'market' sets it at). Of course, these very definitions I'm making of 'worth' could even be argued as being subjective. Could I sell an adult CBB female proven Pancake for 3 grand? Very unlikely! But, that is the 'worth' of the animal to me. Ultimately, the only true worth in my mind is the enjoyment I receive from keeping the animal and it's hopeful reproduction so other keepers can enjoy them too. Their value is only known when sold and I don't ever plan to sell these adults. I place a higher value on them than most I guess. Best of luck with those Stars. Did you produce them?

Matt

I'm guessing Matt is looking at the long term rather than the emotional or short term aspect.

I can't say for sure the pancakes or the goldens or the hermans or the redfoots... that are supposed to be farmed are not.

The point is that they are leagally available at this time. It is up to governing agencies to determine that they are not and take the respective action. If a persons passions run so high as to prove the contrary then they should help the authorities to prove the suspected action and remedy it. I've actually seen this done in the case of the Libyan greeks where a tortoise enthusiest alerted the athorities that they don't exist in Libyia...

The point is that they are available now and should be taken in and added to current stock for the future because they will be shut down as were those tortoises before and the opportunity to have a good founding stock will be lost.

This happened with Egyptian tortoises. I had the opportunity to acquire them (legally at the time) for $35 each. I contacted every zoo I have contact with to acquire them at that price and all refused for what ever reason. They went app I and now there is a huge interest in those little guys. They will probably never be allowed to be collected and there is the very real possibility that their home range habitat or interest in the animal will be put on the locals back page of interest (for whatever reason). Those animals went to hobbiest and are now part of the base that are producing babies available in the pet trade. I see this as a missed opportunity for the zoos. Most of those zoos did not make the same mistake when it came to the Pyxis. When they were available they snatched them up and now there is a good founding stock in the US. I chalk this up to a change in political point of view (but that's another discussion).

Some biologists... scientists... hobbiests realize that the root cause is that the earth is shrinking and there is not much we can do about it outside of education. There's one major hurdle there because passion can be a double edged sword. You can have angry passion or you can have reasonable passion. I think that as soon as the angry passion can be reasoned with... problem solved. You can apply this to any field or point of view. Simple, isn't it.

What we need to do is take what we have now in hand and work with it. Not perpetuating the market is a great theory but by the time you figure out if it will work or not the habitat is gone and the animals are gone. While capitalism might turn some peoples stomachs that is what makes the world function as far as people go.

For anyone else reading this... if you would like to work with whatever animal and work towards a common goal such as developing a founding stock for a captive population, keep good records, keep all sales receipts and try to obtain a paper trail for the animals you purchase. Try and obtain a copy of USFW 3-177 form for the founding stock or any imports (not an easy task but not impossible). This will open many doors for you and help keep it above board.

>>No, as profitable as the black market may be for illegal animals, I'm simply not in that genre of business. I'd be the wrong guy to talk to. In fact, the only tortoises I own are burmese stars, which are MUCH more rare and valuable/expensive than pancakes, and those aren't wild-caught either.
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks for the insightful post! I'm not sure I have the energy to reply indepth... but I might! Hope all is well with you and yours. I STILL cannot get eggs from my F1 Egyptians... ARG!!! But, Elongata Madness has begun! Hahahahaha...

Matt

Don't you wish life was simple and there was one single answer for everything?

On the Egyptians... be patient. They are totally unpredictable.

When I get settled in Gawwwwwwwwgia I will contact you on the elongateds. I now have lots of room (but the weather is not as nice).

You going to Daytona?

>>Thanks for the insightful post! I'm not sure I have the energy to reply indepth... but I might! Hope all is well with you and yours. I STILL cannot get eggs from my F1 Egyptians... ARG!!! But, Elongata Madness has begun! Hahahahaha...
>>
>>Matt
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Don't you wish life was simple and there was one single answer for everything?

Hahahaha... Yep. Hey, in 100,000 years it will all be SO different! But, that does not mean we should not 'care' and try to keep things 'on the up and up' now, right?!

>>On the Egyptians... be patient. They are totally unpredictable.

Yeah, I know I know... I get breeding action (no visual lockups) but just no eggs. Not sure what the deal is. I DO know they need to be pretty mature and we hatched these like 12 years ago now?!?! So, I would think I'm getting close. Talk about patience! Hahahaha... I actually figured they would need to be around 15 years age for reproductive success. We'll see... It would be nice to produce 'true' F2 offspring.

>>When I get settled in Gawwwwwwwwgia I will contact you on the elongateds. I now have lots of room (but the weather is not as nice).

Sounds good! Can I ask where about in Ga? There are a number of pretty 'big' tort breeders there now. Strange!?! I'm not sure why...

>>You going to Daytona?

Do Sulcata eat grass?!?!?!?! Hahahaha... For sure man! Missed you there last year. Only problem is that Wayne moved my table... ARG!!! Oh well. Hopefully it will still be a decent expo for us.

Thanks, Ed!

Matt