Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After all of the controversy in the herpetocultural society in MI,OH and IN I have been looking at all of the regulations regarding native species. I am an Indiana resident and my wife and I produced Whitesided Black Rat Snakes this year. We have heard of other people being fined for selling this species around here. The only thing listed in the IN regualtions is...

Black Rat Snake (Elaphae obsoleta obsoleta)

The different morphs of the above species are acceptable:

Amelanistic
Leucistic
Xanthic

I am hoping the Whiteside has a different latin name. At least this way we can work around their screwed up regulations. It also states that anything not wild caught is OK....If you can tell me where to catch Whitesides in Indiana I'll give $1,000.00.

I have spent a couple of weeks researching this. I even emailed the DNR. Both the Fish and Wildlife Dept. as well as the Law Enforcement Division with no response. I guess they want us to get fined...Just like speeding tickets at the end of the month... No offense to Policeman who keep reptiles intended.

Any help in this matter will be appreciated!

Mike Pinkston
HISS THIS HERPS
Francisco, IN

The laws & lawmakers can't keep up with all the new mutations we produce. Especially since there are new ones all the time - Albino Licorice, Brindle Licorice, Motleys, Yellow Cow-Suckers, etc. At least IN has enough sense to make mutations exempt - under those circumstances, you should theoretically be alright. It will now be your responsibility to make sure they are listed as exempt because they are a mutation. I would push to get any other mutation listed exempt as well before anyone else is "harassed" by these money-hungary b*stards. They could give a crap less about developing there natural habitat but want to punish us for trying to propagate them in captivity.? To my knowledge the Licorice Sticks (a.k.a. White-sideds) originated in Maryland by George Muskingum.

The official genus for North American rat snakes and corn snakes formerly known as Elaphe spp. is now Pantherophis (since the beginning of this year).

The genus Elaphe is now reserved for certain Old World species, and far less of those than it used to cover.

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tricia

According to the CNAH website the correct nomenclature is:

Eastern Rat Snake, Elaphe alleghaniensis

Western Rat Snake, Elaphe obsoleta

Midland Rat Snake, Elaphe spiloides

But the site also has this link: Pantherophis replaces Elaphe

So which is current and correct?

Center for North American Herpetology

http://www.naherpetology.org/research.asp?id=18

Pantherophis is current and correct. Elaphe is for Old World species only.

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tricia

...
>>The different morphs of the above species are acceptable:
>>
>>Amelanistic
>>Leucistic
>>Xanthic

If they're exempting the above morphs, then it would seem only logical that the whitesided morph would also be exempt. They'd have an impossible task, were they to attempt to prove that licorice-sticks are living wild in the State.
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tricia

they want all the money they can "squeeze" out of us. It is not like they are going to be fair - they are going to follow the law verbatim. I would be scared, they are out to make as much money as they possibly can. Guilty until proven innocent....

Your are right that the Black Ratsnake is indigenous to this state though the Whiteside is not. I do thank you all for your input as this may help us in the future. I had no idea I would start such a hot topic with this thread.
A friend has given us the email address of a friend of hers who is a DNR officer. We have contacted him about exepting this morph along with the others that are exempt. He has in turn forwarded our message to a DNR Law Enforcement Specialist on herp rules. Hopefully we can get this changed in our state.
Like my wife stated in her email to him "I'm sure the animals would prefer to get an exemption instead of a transponder injection".
Again thank you all very much. If you wish to continue this thread please feel free...the more information we have the better. In this battle knowledge is power.

MIke Pinkston
HISS THIS HERPS

before they decide to take action upon you. I wish Ohio had sense enough to make mutations exempt!! It is much more difficult to get your rights back after the law has taken them away....