Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
I have read several care sheets, but as a newb, i am still a little unclear about housing requirments for veils. My question takes several forms;

1. Is a fresh-air habitat (which i have heard is the better of the commercial cages) that is 30x18x30 big enough for two adult, opposite sex, veils if it is devided in half? jueviniles? babies? too big? does it really need to be devided in half of will the two veils have enough room to find their own spots? Very confused.

2. if i do half to devide the tank, will using a mesh screen be acceptable, or is it better to make sure they do not see each other?

3. Lighting. I have an 18 inch flourecent lighting fixture. ANy suggestions as to what bulb i should us? Is 18 inch big enough? will putting a regular lighting fixture with a normal bulb for heat next to the pen be good enough for basking? again, very confused.

4. Not that i am experienced enough for it yet, but does anyone have any directions or guides for free-range housing? (i saw on a site somewhere that this can work as the veils will often just hang out on the tree you have set up for them, and as long as certain precautions are taken to assure that it cant get off the tree and surprise me while im on the toilet) (When i am a little more experienced, this might be good for my appartment. No dogs cats or kids, and very little traffic)

5. just in case anyone missed my other post, are asian pitcher plants toxic to veils? Can veils munch on the leaves without distroying themselves or the plant too much?

Thanks for all the help,
Jeff

Sorry, forgot one

5. what is the policy for handling veils? Certain care sheets dont have anything about it, certain ones say they will eventually tame to limited handling like a long tail lizard, and some say never handle them unless it is abolutly nessasary. They all agree that until the veil is well adjusted to its surroundings, it should be left alone. Now i dont expect a veil to rub up against my leg and purr, but is a "no touchy under any circumstances" the only way to go? Is infrequent, gentle handling ok?

thanks again,
jeff

5. what is the policy for handling veils? Certain care sheets dont have anything about it, certain ones say they will eventually tame to limited handling like a long tail lizard, and some say never handle them unless it is abolutly nessasary. They all agree that until the veil is well adjusted to its surroundings, it should be left alone. Now i dont expect a veil to rub up against my leg and purr, but is a "no touchy under any circumstances" the only way to go? Is infrequent, gentle handling ok?
I've only handled my veided ONCE, when I first bought him, to put him in his cage. Other than that I've never needed to, I've managed to clean his cage by removing what I needed to and he runs up to the top corner and hisses at me. I was told that they are 'ornamental' if you will,, look but don't touch,,, and in some instances they don't even want to be looked at. My guy actually comes out of hiding to see whats going on in the room, very nosey.
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1.0.0 Mali Uromastyx (Angus)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Eddie)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Stevie Ray)
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko (Jimi)
2.0.0 Dogs (Black German Shepherd-Nicholas, Black Lab-Cooper)
1.1.0 Budgies (Kia and Simon)
0.0.25 Various Fishies (Freshwater)
2.1.0 Hubby and kids (Boy and a Girl)

ok, cool, that does help with several of the questions. i would be very surprised if anyone would be able to answer the carnivorous plant question, but i thought i would ask anyway. i think i will have to do a little more research on that before i try it, like maybe try a small leaf and see if the veil eats it. If it does not, than i know im safe. If it does.. well... ill just have to keep track of what happens next.

I do still really want to know about the free range aspect of veil owning, as this sounds preferrable to having a screen cage, if it can be done.

As for the housing, if i have two screen cages next to each other, each with a different sex veil, will it still stress them out if they are a few feet apart, or should they be on opposite sides of the room?

What would be the smallest cage that would be acceptable to an adult veil? Is 18x12x18 good enough? I just want to know what kind of set ups i need to buy if i want to try veils

SPeaking of trying veils, what advace would you (as in yall) give for what veils to buy? Would it be easier for me to get a pair of babies that i could keep in the same cage for a while untill they are old enough to seprate and i am forced to buy another cage? Would it be easier to just go ahead and get 2 jueviniles and 2 cages? 2 adults?

Thanks for the time, i know i have alot of questions.
Jeff

ps. i also heard from another person that i may not need any flourecent bulb if my enclosure is in sunlight. Potentialy, i could have the cage in any kind of sun, from morning only, to afternoon only, to full day. Is this acceptable? I mean, besides cutting down on material and operating costs, it also means the veil would be getting full spectrum light. Yes?

You asked..."if i have two screen cages next to each other, each with a different sex veil, will it still stress them out if they are a few feet apart, or should they be on opposite sides of the room?"...they will be fine next to each other as long as there is something in between the cages so that they can't see each other.

You said..."Would it be easier for me to get a pair of babies that i could keep in the same cage for a while untill they are old enough to seprate and i am forced to buy another cage? Would it be easier to just go ahead and get 2 jueviniles and 2 cages? 2 adults?"...if this is going to be your first time keeping a chameleon, I would get one male, subadult or adult and go from there. (When you buy two young ones from the same place, you should make sure that they come from different parents if you want to breed them eventually.)

Re: lighting/sunlight...I've never been able to keep a chameleon in the sunlight all the time since I live in a northern climate...so I'm not going to answer this one.

Excellent,
Thanks. I think ill just go for one male sub adult in a 30x18x30 cage and see how i do. If it works out, i can duplicate the same cage for a female and than start asking the questions i need to ask about breeding.

Thanks alot,
jeff

I'm a newbie too but I'll take a stab at answering your questions..

1. Is a fresh-air habitat (which i have heard is the better of the commercial cages) that is 30x18x30 big enough for two adult, opposite sex, veils if it is devided in half? jueviniles? babies? too big? does it really need to be devided in half of will the two veils have enough room to find their own spots? Very confused.
I think that size is good for ONE adult but not two. If they are of opposite sex you also run the risk of stressing out the female with the male trying to breed. If you divide it in half you end up with cages which would be 18x15x30 which I believe is a little on the small side. I also think it is too big for babies but I could be wrong here.

2. if i do half to devide the tank, will using a mesh screen be acceptable, or is it better to make sure they do not see each other?
Again I think it's too small to be divided but maybe for juvies it would be ok. BUT they should not be able to see each other. Don't use screen.

3. Lighting. I have an 18 inch flourecent lighting fixture. ANy suggestions as to what bulb i should us? Is 18 inch big enough? will putting a regular lighting fixture with a normal bulb for heat next to the pen be good enough for basking? again, very confused.
Not sure about this one. It sounds a little on the short side but I'm not positive. And for the basking spot I think as long as you check your temperatures (using a probe or temp gun) and the temps are ok then you should be fine

4. Not that i am experienced enough for it yet, but does anyone have any directions or guides for free-range housing? (i saw on a site somewhere that this can work as the veils will often just hang out on the tree you have set up for them, and as long as certain precautions are taken to assure that it cant get off the tree and surprise me while im on the toilet) (When i am a little more experienced, this might be good for my appartment. No dogs cats or kids, and very little traffic)
no idea
5. just in case anyone missed my other post, are asian pitcher plants toxic to veils? Can veils munch on the leaves without distroying themselves or the plant too much?
again, no idea

Ok experts, how'd I do?? Lo
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1.0.0 Mali Uromastyx (Angus)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Eddie)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Stevie Ray)
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko (Jimi)
2.0.0 Dogs (Black German Shepherd-Nicholas, Black Lab-Cooper)
1.1.0 Budgies (Kia and Simon)
0.0.25 Various Fishies (Freshwater)
2.1.0 Hubby and kids (Boy and a Girl)

You asked about a fresh-air habitat...can't tell you. I've never used one...but the size you mentioned is big enough for one chameleon. I would never keep veileds any other way than one to a cage (except for those under 4 months of age or for mating purposes). One will usually decline in health and die earlier than it should when you do that. There is always low level stress there that will manifest itself as illnesses/health issues...and although the chameleon may not appear to have died because its sharing its cage, IMHO that is the real cause. Besides...do you want to risk having your chameleon for a short time by trying it?

I start off with my babies in screen-lidded tanks (yup...your read that right) that are about 20 gallons...but be aware that I live in a cool climate, and wouldn't recommend this under other circumstances...several to a tank. I do not use basking lights on these tanks. I separate any out that grow faster or slower than their siblings, or any that "argue" with their siblings and the rest stay together until they are about 4 months....depending on their growth rate. Because these chameleons mature sexually at a young age, its not "safe" to keep them together after the age of about 4 months. Also, I never mate a pair until the female is over 1 year of age. I like to make sure she is full grown before I put demands on her to produce fertile eggs. Some will produce infertile eggs before they are that old...but they seem to be less of a drain on the system.

You asked..."does it really need to be devided in half of will the two veils have enough room to find their own spots?" and "will using a mesh screen be acceptable, or is it better to make sure they do not see each other"...IMHO it definitely needs to be divided with something that they can't see each other through. Even if they find their own spots in the cage, there will be low level stress as they try to keep their own territory. In the wild they have more space to move away from each other, so that stress isn't constant. The male will also harass the female whenever she doesn't show her non-receptive/gravid coloration.

You asked..."ANy suggestions as to what bulb i should us?"...I usually use ReptiSun 5.0's...but there are other full spectrum (including UV) florescents that are much the same. You asked...4"Is 18 inch big enough?"...on the size of cage that you mentioned, it would be better if you had it longer (2')...and the fixture should be placed so that its about 12" above where the chameleon will likely sit. The further the chameleon is away from the UVB the less UVB there will be for it to absorb. There should be no glass or plastic between the light and the chameleon either. Sunshine is still the best source of light for them...of course. If you are keeping them indoors all the time, you may need to use supplements too. (And either way, gutloading your insects is advisable.)

You asked..."will putting a regular lighting fixture with a normal bulb for heat next to the pen be good enough for basking?"...I always put the light I use for heat/basking above the cage....be careful that its not close enough to burn the chameleon.

Can't help you with the free-ranging...I've never tried it.

You asked..."are asian pitcher plants toxic to veils? Can veils munch on the leaves without distroying themselves or the plant too much?"..I have no idea if they are toxic or not. I have seen a veiled completely defoliate a pothos plant...so if it chose to, it could finish off a pitcher plant too. Whatever plants you use, make sure that they have been well washed...both sides of the leaves. I alway make sure I cover the soil with something (pebbles that are too big to ingest) to stop the chameleon from eating the dirt too. Some dirts can cause impactions...as can substrates (which is why I also recommend no substrates for veileds too).

You asked..."what is the policy for handling veils?"...I handle them very little as a rule. Some will TOLERATE more handling than others....but there's always that silent stress factor to consider. Just because they don't appear to be stressed, doesn't mean that they aren't.

You said that some care sheets say they will eventually tame to limited handling, in my experience, once a grump always a grump...and even the ones that are not grumpy can become grumpy. Not saying that none will ever tame down...its all an individual thing. You asked if infrequent, gentle handling is ok...generally it is if the chameleon "willing". I have had some that would bite me every time if they could and I have had others that come out on me willingly. The willing ones even come over to the door of the cage when they see me...but be aware that it might be that they want out of the cage and not that they really want to be handled.

Here are three sites that have good information that you might want to look at...
http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/
http://adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/index.html

Hope this helps!

Jeff, first of they are more commonly named Veiled Chameleons and not Veil Chameleons. This is important as your online and book searches will return substantially more results.

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I would suggest that you first purchase only one, and keep it for 3-4 months or so. The entire chameleon genus are heavy maintenance and demand a dedicated owner. I'f all goes well during that time then you can decide if you still want to invest in all the rest. Remember, vet bills can be very expensive, and in my opinion each females needs a checkup before breeding.

A younger male of maybe 3 months bought from a trustworthy breeder, and not a pet store would be a good start. (If you are going to be breeding them then you will want to know the bloodlines)

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Handling? go for it. But heed to their warnings. If they say "NO" then back off just as any other chameleon would. You have to decypher their language and know what says "NO" and what means "OK I'm being cautious".

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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

I think most carnivorours plants secrete a sappy residue that digests the prey, so I don't think it would be best to put any in. But someone here can better answer that.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Natural, filtered sunshine is great, but sunlight coming through glass windows does not provide UVB-only heat. Sunlight filtered through window screening diminishes the UVB output, but is an acceptable source of UVB. Part of the cage must always be shaded for a retreat area if things warm up too much. if you live in a part of the country where you must keep your windows closed then providing a UVB light source will benefit your chameleon. Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

Psssst, Diane, you have to reply to captotterboy, not me.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Ooops,that's what happens when you let an old lady on the computer! I just read all of the posts and answer to the last one! My bad, but hopefull, with your tutelage, I'm learning! Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

you don't have to retype... you just need to copy and paste the text.

Highlight the text you wanted to re-type, and click the RIGHT side mouse button, select COPY. Then go to reply on the correct message, and click in the part where you put your reply. The righlt click the mouse again and select PASTE.

Voila, it has now duplicated the text.
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CANADIAN CHAMELEONS

Hey,
Thanks for the advice. That will probobly be what i do. just as an aside, i was using veil as a short. Whenever i do searches and that kind of idea i use veiled. I just get lazy when typing hehe. any thoughts on my sunshine question?

Thanks,
Jeff

I replied to the wrong post. Read my post to Will, please so I don't have to retype it! LOL diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

Which one?

Natural, filtered sunshine is great, but sunlight coming through glass windows does not provide UVB-only heat. Sunlight filtered through window screening diminishes the UVB output, but is an acceptable source of UVB. Part of the cage must always be shaded for a retreat area if things warm up too much. if you live in a part of the country where you must keep your windows closed then providing a UVB light source will benefit your chameleon. Diane
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This one!
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

Ok, since spring and summer are on there way, is morning or afternoon sun through a screen with bright shade the rest of the day, along with a 18inch flourecent bulb on a 30x18x30 tank enough UVB for a single male veil?

Speaking of which, since a veil appreciates dry climates, is a room with AC at night ok for a screen tank? SHould i avoid putting the cage anywhere near a vent? I will have a drip system, and my appartment with the ac on is rather dry.

Thanks,
Jeff

You just need to make sure wherever you position the cage will allow for a cool side as well as a basking area. I'm using tape pieces right now on my front porch and back deck to track the sun for positioning my outdoor tube cage so that it will always have at least part of it in the shade. You don't even need to put your cage directly in the window, just position it so that a beam of sunshine tracks through the open window and across the cage. I have read that only 20 minutes of basking in natural sunshine is very beneficial to sun-loving herps. You don't ever want air blowing directly on your cham but air flow in the room is great. You may just want to decrease or direct the air flow from the closest vent a little bit. My "heated" house is 67F right now so I doubt your air conditioner is going to cool your house lower than that. I usually decrease the wattage of my basking bulbs by 25-50 watts during the warm months when my house temps increase by about 5 degrees. (72-74F) Also, placing your cage on an interior wall is best as you are more able to determine a steady temperature. Exterior walls can vary greatly due to outside climate changes. I have a heat pump with a thermostat that swithces between heating and cooling. The house never gets any cooler than 67F during the winter and the A/C kicks on when indoor temps hit 72F. That keeps my herps from cooking on warm, Spring afternoons when I'm at work. I'd rather pay the electric bill than risk losing one of my herps. Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago

Hey
Perfect. The spot i have is directly underneith an ac vent, but the vent is angled away, so no direct breeze will be on the cage, but the proximity of the vent will ensure a good air flow. Also, the sun comes through for a couple of hours, and it is backed up against white dry wall. Excellent. My tank should be getting here soon. When it does i can go get the other stuff i need (18" bulb, drip system, plants, thermometer and humidifier)

Thanks for the help,
Jeff

Well, everyone's pretty well covered your questions about housing, handling (infrequent is best in my opinion), etc. As for the Asian pitchers and possible toxicity...remember the pitchers do secrete acids and enzymes that dissolve and enable digestion of insects. That said, there are also known symbiotic relationships between Neps and certain mites, microscopic organisms, species of ants and spiders that live inside the traps completely unharmed! It's entirely possible that a Nepenthes would do no harm if eaten.
On a more practical level, since a couple of my chams are experts at defoliation and plant annihilation, I personally stick to inexpensive, easy to replace common houseplants and keep my Neps out of harm's way!

I just posted a question about which plants to use for my tank. I know there are some sites that have info on good plants to use, but i wanted to know which sites have good info on this. I think i might just try a inexpensive n ventricosa cutting and have the drip sytem going on it. That way the veil will have a place to drink, the plant will get the humidity it needs without raising the humidity in the rest of the cage, and the traps will help clean up insects the veils doesnt get to.

Thanks for the help,
Jeff