Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Would it be possible to breed a leucistic rat snake to a corn, and possibly make a corn that is leucistic???? Or is there such a thing????
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A.J.
0.1.0- Fiancee- Emily (LOL!)
1.0.0- Amel Motley Corn- Valentine (R.I.P 5/20/05)
0.1.0- Snow Corn- Artica
1.0.0- Normal Corn- Ember
1.0.0- Ball Python- G.T.
1.0.0- Bearded Dragon- Stang
2.0.0- Chihuahua- Nightro, Parker
1.2.0- Cats- Mollie, Sammie, Clowie
0.0.12- Fish- All Unnamed

Yes it has been done.They are called Pearl Corns.Mcgrathreptiles.com has some available I believe.

It is not a pure corn though. So it shouldnt be called a Corn.
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Cameron

Who said they were pure? You do realize this is the hybrid forum.

It is labeledon the web site as EXACTLY what it is and Further, as in the earlier post, this is the hybrid forum, sans , we are duscussing a hybrid.

then neither should creamsicles!!!!
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0.1.0 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0.0 snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0.0 amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
0.0.1 snapping turtles
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons

TOU! CHE!!

Exactly....LOL!!!Funny how some people think they should have the say on whats right & wrong.Maybe they haven't heard of a Junglecorn either.Amazing!

Right ON

Most people that protect there cornsnakes Purity still dont realise that many of the so-called pure morphs are indeed Hybrids. lol.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

Id love to here what morphs, besides a Creamsicle. And your proof towards this assumption.
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Cameron

For starters, everything made with "creamsickle", which is quite a long list and secondly all the "frosted" morphs descend from the cross of cornsnake to gray ratsnake.

I shouldnt have to inform you of what is what in the world of corns, judge ing buy some of your posts in the corn forum you have a good knowledge of cornsnakes, so you should know what is what.

Just like Kingmilk said (Just for starters).

Now think about all the other morphs that contain the mixes that he said.

The situation with cornsnakes is not a pure as you would like to think.

there are many corn breeders that also hybridize and many of them mix and match, just because most of them say the dont that doesnt meen that they being completly truthfull.

The reason they get away with it is because genetic testing is very expensive and many people wouldnt no a hybrid marker if it was staring them in the face anyway.

Sure there are trustworthy breeders out there, im not saying there isnt, but greed seems to dominate at the momment,and money does the strangest things to even the most trustworthy of people. new morphs meen more money.

It seems to be a new morph a week with the cornsnakes. lol.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

Creamsicles which are breed to Emori's as everyone knows. But some people didnt know that Emori's have always been thought to be a sub species of corn snakes up until recently. So in a way they arent fully hybrids like kings and corns are.

Im not saying i hate hybrids either, i have seen some nice ones before but the fact that some people lie and say they are not hybrids and dont give full information on them is wrong and upsets me.

I am a locality person myself, but everyone has a right to there opinion and what they want to do with there animals.

Im sorry if i offended anyone.

Random picture (S. Racer)

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Cameron

Cameron,

Also if you know something about corns you would know they also hybridize with all sorts of ratsnakes down in Florida.

Here is a snow cornduran. Most of the others in the clutch looked like they had honduran in them . This one came out looking more like a cornsnake.

Seee how easy they mask what is iun their blood!

here is a pic of the head. Very corn looking for a 50/50. Now imagine I breed this into another cornsake to improve the colors. See what I mean. Most corns are hybridized. Thats where all the different color morphs come from. People beleive what they want to beleive about purity. If it make you happy that you think your corsn are pure then GREAT. At least you are happy with the snake.

What a beauty Rainer! Those corndurans are very nice. Which personality do they tend to get?

You are on the mark with the corns. The thing that people never take into account is how often hybridization happens in the wild amongst these "species", where there is overlap. Corns and obseleta, corns and milks (generally eastern in the wild), corns and getula, emoryi and prairie king, etc add infinitum. And some of those crosses are so subtle that you cant even tell it in the f1 without very close scrutiny,let alone if you go into the f2 through backbreeding and then wash that original hybrid in later generations of one species or the other, or the hybrids breed together becoming a new form (this is called reticulate evolution and most frequently occurs in disturbed habitats; think ice ages, though can occur in normal habitats as well. The red wolf of florida is such a creature; a hybrid between wolf and coyote). The fact that these crosses are fertile shows that there is no barrier to this occurring in the wild. Further, the fact that these snakes can and will cross in some instances without any coaxing, just like two of the same "species" will, further shows that it happens in the wild. Then the offspring which survive to reproduce breed back into one species or the other and later someone catches some of these "cornsnakes" or whatever and are calling them "locality pure" because they caught it in the wild, in a locality and it visually identified as this or that "species". With corn x obseleta, this must be at least fairly common, especially in the florida phases where there is so much overlap of so many "variations". I dont believe you get that many variations without intermixing. Recent gene studies have shown that the obseleta and gutatta do not run in "family groups" (clads) from east to west as always thought (i.e., through the bands of "sub-species" or more correctly, regional variations or color morphs), but actually run from north to south, regardless of color phase or the arbitrary and superficial "sub-species" or "wild morph" designation. Thus a black rat, yellow rat and grey rat from a north/south line are more genetically the same than are say yellow rats on the eastern and western edges or the range of that "sub-species". In short, these visual phenotypes do not indicate much, and as hybridization in captivity shows, the "other" can be so easily and quickly masked, that there is no way to say that any wild population is pure unless there is no overlap whatsoever and there never has been in that "species" evolutionary history. In other words, total isolation from anything that it can produce a fertile offspring wtih. Thus, the whole notion of locality animals is more about "location", similar phenotypes and regional relativism than it is about "purity" on the genetic level. A marketing tool at best, propaganda based on belief (rather than any proof or science) at worst. The reality of these creatures is a genetic continuum rather than each being in some kind of "genetic vacuum", with some being more or less related, but the fact that they produce such high levels of fertile offspring should give everyone serious pause for consideration. The Linaean defintion of a species is that two species can not produce fertile offspring.
So even without captive hybridization, it would be hard to say any corn is absolutely "pure". Certainly, any mutaion which emerges from wild caught stock could be just a mutation, or could represent a recessive trait from a hybridization event that occurred in the wild at any point in the past. To me, that is the most fascinationg thing about the "hybrid" snakes. They open a door to a new understanding of science, speciazation, and most certainly, how we use the Linaean classification system and what really constitutes a "species".
Now with all that said, none of it takes into account the obvious. It would be astoundingly easy to "introduce" new gene traits to cornsnakes (or anything else in this bunch of colubrids). All it takes is someone who wants to do it and hides it or someone who is doing it and someone else gets ahold of an animal that looks like a corn plus this or that gene and blends it into their corns and "forgets" to mention that original source, or even someone who gets an animal descended from a cross many generations ago that really, no one knew it was there and they breed it into their corns and generations later from inbreeding that line loosely they get a "new mutation". All of these scenarios can and have happened, but it is also true that mutations can and do happen and some corn phases undoubtedly are just that, but who can tell the difference and in the end, since these are domestic morphs with no place in the wild, even if there were anywhere to release them, what differences does it really make? Who is going to do a wild release program with lavender hypo motley striped buttercorns anyhow? They are a domestic and are moving toward having no more relevance to a "wild cornsnake" being bred for "conservation" than they would to a herd of wild elephants. I think we should all just enjoy this fascinating hobby and recognize that none of us who breed morphs, whether hybrid or not, are conserving anything. We are domesticating, not conserving. There is too much to learn about the natural history and genetics of these snakes to be so hard on hybridization. In the end, it is where we will learn the most about these animals origins and relations and perhaps even in time spawn a revolution in the Linaean system of nomenclature.
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

I think that is an unfair generalization to say locality is all about maketing at best. There are most certainly variations between locality and there are people like myself who don't use anything as marketing. People who keep what they like because they like it and sell what they have. What may sound like hype or propaganda to one person may actually just be somebody sharing their enthusiasm. A locality fanatic can't sell snakes he doesn't have can they?

I think what kingmilk meant was that certain people USE locality as a selling point when in fact the snakes are not pure as the driven snow. It all about honest represntation and most corn breeders fall into one of 3 catagories.

1)ignorant
2)scammers
3)hybridizers

BTW Kingmilk, nice post. You posts are always so though provoking and well written. Sometimes its hard for me to respond because everything you write its so well thought out . Most people I have seen argue with you are not on your level and that can make if difficult for someone like you to continue posting on a public forum. I hope you can ignore some of the less intelligent replies ( I don't mean you Aaron) and reply to the ones that have a good point/arguement or at least an honest point. You are a huge asset around here.

Thanks Bluerosy, I didn't think you meant me. I have respect for hybridizers like you and kingmilk who represnt thier progeny honestly.

Hey Rianer. Thanks for the complement. I appreciate it! Drop me a line sometimes and let me know how your work is going.
Brian

I agree.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

i ment to add, Kingmilk.

and bluerosy i agree with your comments.

Great stuff.
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************* Oh no its Me again *************

You all crack me up sometimes....i appreciate the help, also I believe that some hybrids, such as the jungle corn, creamsicle(sp?), and now pearl corn....are called corns cause it probably makes them more desirable cause of the corns rep as being a snake with a good personality
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A.J.
0.1.0- Fiancee- Emily (LOL!)
1.0.0- Amel Motley Corn- Valentine (R.I.P 5/20/05)
0.1.0- Snow Corn- Artica
1.0.0- Normal Corn- Ember
1.0.0- Ball Python- G.T.
1.0.0- Bearded Dragon- Stang
2.0.0- Chihuahua- Nightro, Parker
1.2.0- Cats- Mollie, Sammie, Clowie
0.0.12- Fish- All Unnamed