Reptile & Amphibian Forums

n/p

It sure is!!! hang on to that one... Or sell it to me .. ~ Mike

Wow.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 3/2/06

THAT is a beautiful snake...sell me a baby!!!

Scott

Very nice pair! Can you elaborate on the origin of those? If I'm not mistaken there Mark Bailey stock and his line are the only proven recesive striped honduran.

You are correct, I bought them from Mark.

That is a very nice striped honduran. Here's a vanishing bi-colored albino that I have and hope to produce this year.

I asked Don to post this pic of his Vanishing Albino. Here are pics of mine. I wanted to get some thoughts on similarities, and differneces from the forum. I am calling mine "Phantoms" why you ask. I just thought they deserved a better name then Vanishing.

Yes John, you can really tell the difference with it in your hand. Super nice animals. Thanks for posting it.

I was not in anyway trying to imply mine were nicer then yours when you emailed me the your pic. I think yours are perfect 10's when it comes to color and vanishing. I justed wanted to show you that the ones I produced are not normal vanishing. But of course I am biased. I cannot wait to see what happens when they are breed back to each other or to their father and mother..

Remember the rules of the game prove it then name it!

Not sure what you mean by that comment.

Well the adults of your vanishing are'nt vanishing so to name it you will have to breed the siblings together and see if it is recesive, right?

I produced these from 2 different females breed to the same male last year. One clutch was all vanishing the other was about half. I think he has a dominate strait for this vanishing pattern. But your are correct I will know for sure within the next 120 days...I still like the name Phantom either way.

Phantom it is!

Don's looks like it has a little more red which I like a little better. But it's hard to tell with Don's photography skills he could make a worm snake look incredible!

That's because you like him more then me....

The morph I want now is Bailey Striped but I'm sure there all spoken for.

I have a vanishing male (well kinda vanishing)which will produce, hopefully!

>>I asked Don to post this pic of his Vanishing Albino. Here are pics of mine. I wanted to get some thoughts on similarities, and differneces from the forum. I am calling mine "Phantoms" why you ask. I just thought they deserved a better name then Vanishing.
>>
in the spirit of discussion...

If the snake pictured here were an amel, then, it would be a "phantom" or maybe more appropriately, a "super phantom", wouldn't it, because it's got even less of the black (or white) areas than the specimen in your photo? I would still prefer "vanishing pattern" for both this hypo and for your amel, for a couple reasons:
1) think when the differences are just a matter of degree, there's no need to coin a new name. We don't need to go all ball-python on this.
2) i still prefer descriptive names. imho, and it's just opinion, i guess, "vanishing pattern" is descriptive, phantom not.
3_ if I understand correctly, this is a pattern morph not a color morph, so the name has to work with various colors, i.e., "phantom amel," phantom hypo, phantom extreme hypo (see next post), phantom wild type, etc.
Of course, if it turrns out your snakes are a unique recessive trait not related to don's vanishing pattern amel or my vanishing pattern hypo--that is to say, if your line produces only animals looking just like the one in the picture, and they never vary to include specimens like don's or mine--then it would need a unique name to acknowledge its unique genetic standing. In that case, though, i'd still prefer a descriptive term. "super vanishing" says more than "phantom". And if this is in fact a variable trait, improved (at least to the extent that we consider less and less black (or white) banding to be an improvement) then eventually we'll produce all orange specimens, or nearly all orange. would "vanished pattern" communicate better to people what to expect, for those animals?
peace
terry

here's an extreme hypo that raises the same questions: is it a vanishing pattern extreme hypo, as i've been calling it? a phantom extreme hypo? a super phantom extreme hypo, since it has less black/white marking than yours? obviously it would all depend on whether this animal demonstrates itself as a unique genetic line. In my opinion, it will not. Almost none of the pattern morphs are, they end up being variable instead. We have to remember an animal may produce animals like itself when bred to a couple of particular females that may be related to it. The real test to see if it's a true recessive is to outcross it to a normal, and then breed those babies to each other (are 25% of the babies "phantoms" by whatever name? and X the parent (50% match that beautiful parent?)
peace
terry

I agree with you 100%. All the animals in question are simply showing an abnormality in pattern "some more then others". Can it be reproduced? Is it dominate? We should know more this year I hope. I am planning on breeding my male to the female albino I got from you at Tampa last year, and one of Jeff's albinos to prove if it's my male or my female that caused this vanishing trait. Last year I did get the vanishing pattern from two different females x same male. Maybe this year I get nothing but normals, maybe I get the same vanishing or better, in a few months I will know.

Don's vanishing albino and maybe yours as well was only one or maybe two in the clutch with vanishing, "I had an entire clutch".

Should I have called or referred to them as Phantoms? I agree with you there also they are just nice vanishing albinos. But I feel they are a step up from what Don has for an albino. Your extreme vanishing male is just that, an extreme vanishing. He is an extreme first.

I want to somehow seperate my bloodline from others if I produce this again this year, which I am sure I will.

So what do I call them? Everyone calls everything with a slight missing pattern on the sides as VANISHING. Have you seen what some are calling vanishing hypos on the KS sales ads? Come on those are not vanishing in my opinion.

I am stumped, I cannot call them extreme vanishing, I cannot call them super vanishing all of these names are taken in the colubrid market.

I chose Phantom because of it's definition:a vaque, dim, or shadowing appearance.

Mine have white, but it's vaque and or shadowing to some degree.

Just as you do not want me to use the extreme word as it may confuse some about the origin of the bloodline, I do not want my VP bloodline confused with Don's or anyone elses.

Now if Don produces VP's again this year from the same parents then he may have something. I do not think Don produced the animal he has pictured, he bought it.

Anyway hope this makes since I am typing when I should be working.

Hope all is well with you, give me some more of your thoughts. Love to read what others think also.

show a degree of a trait on Hondurans! It is the classification of a morph! Use Super or whatever to describe a greater or less amount of something.

Super is already taken by Steve Osborns Hypos....

Steve is a ball python geek now. He won't mind. I'll find something O.K.

that may be, but it is still associated with his bloodline...Just as extreme is with Falcons.

There are other extreme hypos out there other than falcons' line. And Osbornes' line of hypo, "super" means low band count, less than twelve above the vent.
If you have any more questions just ask, Thanks!

Just wanted to point out my extreme hypo IS NOT a vanishing pattern! I like the silver banding so breeding towards vanishing pattern does not make sense.
Thankyou!

I think you should call them John Lambert's Vanishing Pattern Albinos, or The Lambert line of vanishing pattern albinos, something along those lines. That sort of naming would retain the uniform identification of WHAT they are, but give you the credit you'd deserve for having a line that's different from/better than other people's lines. I don't like NAMING a MORPH after someone, but i don't see anything wrong with people associating something special they've produced with an add-on to the descriptive term, that lets people know a little more about the animal. A term like "phantom," on the other hand--remember i'm just giving my opinion here--doesn't acknowledge any credit you'd deserve, doesn't tell people who to go to to get that particular look of an animal, etc. The risk, of course, is that a year later, others are producing animals that look like yours too (it IS possible) and then there'd be nothing to distingujish the "Jones line" of van patt albinos from the Lambert line. So this sort of terminology can be short lived. I don't know all the details of how the "extreme" hypo morph has evolved since mike falcon first produced them (that's my udnerstanding of the history) but i am guessing it might be hard today to link four different exceptional extreme hypos to four different breeders. So ID'ing the "line" could be appropriate short term but might not last, and the same might be true for "phantom" or another marketing term, once others are producing visually comparable animals--if they do.

terry

>>I agree with you 100%. All the animals in question are simply showing an abnormality in pattern "some more then others". Can it be reproduced? Is it dominate? We should know more this year I hope. I am planning on breeding my male to the female albino I got from you at Tampa last year, and one of Jeff's albinos to prove if it's my male or my female that caused this vanishing trait. Last year I did get the vanishing pattern from two different females x same male. Maybe this year I get nothing but normals, maybe I get the same vanishing or better, in a few months I will know.
>>
>>Don's vanishing albino and maybe yours as well was only one or maybe two in the clutch with vanishing, "I had an entire clutch".
>>
>>Should I have called or referred to them as Phantoms? I agree with you there also they are just nice vanishing albinos. But I feel they are a step up from what Don has for an albino. Your extreme vanishing male is just that, an extreme vanishing. He is an extreme first.
>>
>>I want to somehow seperate my bloodline from others if I produce this again this year, which I am sure I will.
>>
>>So what do I call them? Everyone calls everything with a slight missing pattern on the sides as VANISHING. Have you seen what some are calling vanishing hypos on the KS sales ads? Come on those are not vanishing in my opinion.
>>
>>I am stumped, I cannot call them extreme vanishing, I cannot call them super vanishing all of these names are taken in the colubrid market.
>>
>>I chose Phantom because of it's definition:a vaque, dim, or shadowing appearance.
>>
>>Mine have white, but it's vaque and or shadowing to some degree.
>>
>>Just as you do not want me to use the extreme word as it may confuse some about the origin of the bloodline, I do not want my VP bloodline confused with Don's or anyone elses.
>>
>>Now if Don produces VP's again this year from the same parents then he may have something. I do not think Don produced the animal he has pictured, he bought it.
>>
>>Anyway hope this makes since I am typing when I should be working.
>>
>>Hope all is well with you, give me some more of your thoughts. Love to read what others think also.
>>

"I agree with you 100%. All the animals in question are simply showing an abnormality in pattern "some more then others". Can it be reproduced? Is it dominate? We should know more this year I hope. I am planning on breeding my male to the female albino I got from you at Tampa last year, and one of Jeff's albinos to prove if it's my male or my female that caused this vanishing trait. Last year I did get the vanishing pattern from two different females x same male. Maybe this year I get nothing but normals, maybe I get the same vanishing or better, in a few months I will know."

Can you really name degrees of patterning, though, without putting it in the name? Will people know a phantom is a vanishing patterned albino? Do tricolor albinos get a different name?

"Don's vanishing albino and maybe yours as well was only one or maybe two in the clutch with vanishing, "I had an entire clutch". "

I believe Falcon's clutch of extreme x extreme threw 5 extremes, 1 light hypo that wasn't an extreme and that story isn't completely solved yet. I think it is alot to base a name off of 1-2 clutches. Yes extreme stuck, but it is a destcriptive term like vanishing...still standing for extreme hypomelanistic.

"Should I have called or referred to them as Phantoms? I agree with you there also they are just nice vanishing albinos. But I feel they are a step up from what Don has for an albino. Your extreme vanishing male is just that, an extreme vanishing. He is an extreme first."

I don't quite understand this. The first part is just an opinion, which is respected, but somebody might like Don's better and feel Don's are nicer. Terry's extreme vanishing are descriptive terms. It is attempting to show a degree. In the end it is still a hypo just like the "phantoms" are still, in the end, albinos. I think you'd be better off (just my thought) sticking with anohter descriptive term to go along with vanishing...like exquisite or something.

"I want to somehow seperate my bloodline from others if I produce this again this year, which I am sure I will."

I think it is already separated and everyone associates extremes with Falcon, though others have reproduced animals.

"So what do I call them? Everyone calls everything with a slight missing pattern on the sides as VANISHING. Have you seen what some are calling vanishing hypos on the KS sales ads? Come on those are not vanishing in my opinion."

Well, this is tricky. I agree that some people get carried away but it is a descriptive term. If you have 9 snakes that have solid bands all the way around and don't break pattern and 1 that comes to crescents around the side. You would have to come up with a descriptive name to single it out. I agree that in general, vanishing should be more intensified than what it actually is being advertised...but people may not be entirely incorrect...it is all subjective.

"I am stumped, I cannot call them extreme vanishing, I cannot call them super vanishing all of these names are taken in the colubrid market."

I don't think you have to come up with anything now. You will sell out again this year and people know where the animals are coming from.

"I chose Phantom because of it's definition:a vaque, dim, or shadowing appearance."

"Mine have white, but it's vaque and or shadowing to some degree."

"Just as you do not want me to use the extreme word as it may confuse some about the origin of the bloodline, I do not want my VP bloodline confused with Don's or anyone elses."

Can you really be associated with a descriptive term though? I know Paul Weaver produced extremes from his own line that are thought to have originated, I believe, from Terry around that same time as Falcon received his animals which produced the extremes. They could all come from the same lineage but Paul never even went through Falcon's established line. I think he may be breeding both together in the future. What does Paul call his then? He is still calling them extreme hypos because they match that description.

"Now if Don produces VP's again this year from the same parents then he may have something. I do not think Don produced the animal he has pictured, he bought it."

That shouldn't really matter. It is still is the vanishing patterned albino. Above, doesn't Mark Bailey have an established line for aberrant patterns? I'm asking because I don't really know if he uses another term but does he call them anything else or is Bailey's line just tagged at the end of "aberrent hondo"?

"Anyway hope this makes since I am typing when I should be working."

"Hope all is well with you, give me some more of your thoughts. Love to read what others think also."

These are just some ideas, people can agree or disagree--not here to make enemies

mgl

Each and everyone of you make a good point(s). I thought it would bring some excitement to the ads and to the forum to throw the name Phantom out there.

Can wait to see what you say when I start posting my Snow ads.

the snow posting last year, apparently that nerve is still burning--though not sure why since your name was never even mentioned in my post and your WERE NOT the person I was referring to.

However, I can't say I'm surprised by the comments...I've done my research

that was directed to you personally..

directed to you

we are getting caught up in ball pythonesque wars. We should not be questioning each other rather promoting these fantastic specimens. If you choose phantoms as your name, than that is your choice and we will accept it. Your animals are a huge step again with hondos and will definitely promote the hobby. Congrats and good luck breeding!!!!

No hondo breeders should ever be enemies, that is a small portion of the reason why I escaped from ball pythons.

I only used the Phantom thing to get some excitement going. Maybe I was wrong and we don't need it. I agree with everyone here though, they are just really nice VP Albinos. But if at this time I have the only pair that is producing them consistantly, then I would like it known somehow that mine are different. True I have not breed the VP babies yet. But in talks with other breeders with years of experience over me they think it will breed true, if not better. I only wanted seperation. I see the word VP used to often in describing an animal and it does not mean that animal will produce anything like itself when breed.

I would love to see more helpful suggestions and team work here. My experiences seems to mostly be attacks and or negetive comments. Whether it be prices or animals.

You know if Terry D used the word Phantom some folks here would have loved it. Maybe I am wrong.

We cannot all sell an animal for the same price. We do not all have the same investment or clients.

I'll qoute a great man "Can't we all just get along" joke....

Extreme x Extreme does not produce all extremes, and extreme x normal hypo will not produce any extremes. Is that correct?

Incorrect, extreme hypo to hypo will produce extremes. We don't have a record yet of the percent ratios. I think extreme hypo is co-dominent meaning the hypos are the "het form". Now about your issue with vanishing patterns. The reason you cannot name your vanishing albino something else is because there are too many degress of vanishing and to desribe them all you would have to name probably a hundred. The pics you see on kingsnake are in fact vanishing just to a lesser degree, but that does not mean they won't produce nice vanishings like Terry's. When we start producing striped and aberrent morphs your not going to go around throwing new names on them either. Here is a pic of a "vanishing" pattern hypo which you could not tell from looking strait down on it!

I'm going to take him swimming soon!

As I understand it, extreme to extreme does not guarantee any extremes. Only Mike Falcon can say otherwise.

you. I type to fast sometimes, and fail to read before posting sorry dude..

I think thats as far from a v.p as I am.
splitbrain

Its pattern is gone on the sides and his belly is patternless. Maybe you could see this if your brain was'nt split!

Maybe it would help if someone could post pics of a "normal" hypo with non-vanishing bands, wide all the way round!

"VP" Hypo Honduran

Notice this pinstripe that is not a VP bands are complete!

its called a pinstripe.So what would you call one that had even bands that were complete that were only one scale wide?

splitbrain

I ment pinnbanded. Now that striped and aberrent are coming into the picture.

You mean like this? Yes it's a pinner but not vanishing bands are still complete!

My 2c worth...

I have seen neither John's nor Don's animals in person, so I'm going just by the pictures that have been posted...

To me, John's albinos look very similar to Don's except that John's have more of a vanishing pattern effect. In fact, they look like they are near to being patternless. I don't know that I would call them a new morph. Then again, I have no problem with John tagging them with a new name for marketing purposes to keep his line separate from others. Like he said, there are a number of hypos in the classifieds listed as "vanishing pattern" which are not, and the same holds true for tangerine albinos and Extreme hypos that I have seen listed as well. Hopefully we won't see the ball python effect.

Paul
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

I somehow deleted your email from over the weekend before I could respond to it.

I believe you were asking about Jeff's animal? It will be breed this year to his mother. Jeff was going to breed him to several of my hypos but has change his mind. If any of you know Jeff that should not suprise you...

What there anything else? Good Luck with your animals, and thanks for your opinion with mine...John

Now that is stunning! I hope to see many new things in Hondurans this year, and for years to come. Excellent snake Tom Stevens

Very, very nice!! Love the contrast in colors.
Nathan