Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What does that mean to you? I personally think "paperwork" is overrated, and if you need "proof" that you are buying what you are paying for, you should do business with someone you trust. I have seen people offer "paperwork" with visual morphs, and with Possible hets???? Maybe I am way off on this...

Dave

As someone who is neither a breeder nor a collector, paperwork would mean very little to me, particularly with a ball python. On the other hand, if you're going to collect or breed, a paper trail might help you sell your animals. You may trust the source of your animal, but if you ever have to sell that animal, your customer might be willing to pay more for an animal that he or she can trace back to the original breeder. A paper trail might also help you sell the offspring if the grandparents were from a reputable breeder. I realize that all of these things can be faked, so papers have limited value. On the other hand, markets can be funny things, and paperwork impresses some people.

Maybe if I were going to get a mountain kingsnake or some other species that could be hard to distinguish from a hybrid, I would want something to prove that mine was really "pure" of whatever I think he/she is. I wouldn't care for my own purposes. All I ask is that he/she be healthy, attractive, good natured, and a good eater. However, if I ever had to sell him/her, I'd probably have more potential customers among breeders if I could show paperwork to establish that this animal was pure of whatever species I claim.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Are needed!

With every thing going on in the reptile world you NEED to have pic's and papers. If thats not reason enough then what about this,

What if you needed to sell that het that you paid $5000.00 for cause he looked nice, you weren't going to breed him, you just really liked the way he looked. Then you find out, with out the paper work, you have a hard time getting $50.00 for him?

Sorry but I think paperwork is a big deal, if I ever buy/sell a het, pos het, it will have paper work with pics, thats just the way it is.
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Please...
Keep an OPEN MIND, You'll be AMAZED...

personally i blame the forums for the "paperwork" frenzy.....you see it all the time..."make sure you get paperwork"....why??

all the paper in the world doesn't make a het a het....if you can't trust the person then that piece of paper doesn't change anything. a fake piece of paper is not a problem to someone scamming another out of a few hundred or thousand bucks.

my boss has been asked about paperwork...his reply "your invoice says its a 100% het, that's your paperwork" the response..."but what other kind of paperwork do you provide?".....how many pieces of paper does it take????
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Stu
www.2amCreations.com
Not even remotely close to the most extensive collection of ball python morphs in captivity!

I agree with you Stu, and your boss makes a valid point about the invoice.

Michael Enriquez made a good point about Joe Schmo being the one he bought it from and he's the one that should be backing up the animal or animals.

Hey ... is it Schmo, Schhmo or Schmoe

SNAKEBYTES
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g...

_____

i believe the original german spelling is schmoe, but i don't know for sure so i stick with john q public
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Stu
www.2amCreations.com
Not even remotely close to the most extensive collection of ball python morphs in captivity!

Just before I put the snake into the shipping box, I confirm I'm shipping the correct animal by looking at the photo I place into the shipping box along with the snake. This avoids any problems from shipping the wrong animal. It also helps the buyer to ensure they are getting the right animal.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

that is why i'm a huge fan of the microchip

i use the "bleeper" (that's a technical term) and compare the snake number to the number on the invoice before shipping. works like a champ, no need for hundreds of extra pieces of paper / pictures, etc...

yes, before its even said....i know not everyone has a chip reader, but for the buyer, most every vet office does and i know my local vet will scan my critters for free (as long as i don't show up with 50 at a time
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Stu
www.2amCreations.com
Not even remotely close to the most extensive collection of ball python morphs in captivity!

Be careful there. Scanners are proprietary. My vet can only scan one type and does not care about the other less common chips. Unfortuanately, the chips he scans are the larger ones. Personally, paperwork is a lot less hassle (for me).
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Aside from the basic genetics guarantee ... Look at it this way - Joe Schmo buys a pair of hets top dollar from NERD - then decides he wants to sell them (geting out of the ball game or whatever) - is anyone going to buy a pair of hets from some unknown person claiming to have gotten them from NERD without so much as some proof? Also helps to track blood lines - you'd be pretty upset if you tried to Breed your VPI axanthic to a SK axanthic and came up empty (incompatible lines), of if they didn't prove out and if you want to avoid breeding possible siblings, or just as proof of their background.

Many reasons to include paperwork.

Lets face: "buy from those you trust" is hypocritical cause everytime you turn around there are more and more people coming here pissing and moaning cause people only want to buy from big named breeders. The little guy willing to stand behind his product is just as qualified. Pick a side people....
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.42.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizard of unknown origin

I have never bought a snake or any animal for that matter that came with "paperwork" so I don't know what this paperwork entitles. The only real referance I have is reading about paperwork included with pure bred dogs and cats. From what I understand is this type of paperwork includes the names and owner information of the particular animals ancestry. IT would have the names of say, the puppies parents, their status and current ownership (at the time of purchase of the pup that is) plus same info on the grandparents and great grand parents of the pup on both sides. It would also include organizational membership and list of prices/ribbons etc (ie best of show, best breed etc, AKC (American Kennel Club) affliation etc.

With snakes, there is no American Snake Club or other governing body determining what each morph should look like, what traits designate the 'ideal' snake of each species, morph etc. So no way to include any of this info in paperwork. Bloodlines and original developer of a particular morph is really all thats available. Tracing a snake to a certain bloodline or originator of a particular morph, can be beneficial, if it can be backed up with a way to varify it. I can sell a normal store bought snake as a het, and give all kinds of paperwork indicating the snake's great grand parents were NERD line etc...but if I don't include anyway to varify that, it's just worthless paperwork. Even if the paperwork is completely authentic,how would anybody know for certain?

I think the paperwork should have contact information for the breeders it's line comes from. IE. If say, I bought a NERD line snake, bred it to a bunch of other snakes, and sold it's offspring and grand offspring, the paperwork should indicate that the Grand Father came from NERD (listing his parents and as far back from there as possible), and the parentage of the female etc down to the baby snake I am selling. ALso, all current owners of each snake directly involved should also be included, as well as contact information (breeder identification codes should be used too, if possible or available, even if it's just the name of the snakes).

All this requires good record keeping and maintaining contact with the people a breeder buys their snakes from and who they sell to, if needed.

From what I understand for snake paperwork, it is more a record of how often it feeds, what dates it shed, the dates each meal is taken, records of any treatments etc. What does such paperwork really tell us anyway? That the snake eats, drinks, sheds and poops normally?
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PHLdyPayne

Tosha, I agree. Great advice.
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Kyle J. Stevens
Royal Variations Ltd.

Many a false step is made from standing still.

OK, my point is this: Paperwork without any kind of photo is worthless. Even if you have guarantees from a big breeder, in writing, without a photo, what good is that paperwork? Someone can buy some legit hets from BIG BREEDER, call BIG BREEDER every day for a month, asking different husbandry questions, feeding questions, etc., making sure BIG BREEDER "remembers" them, and then can try to sell those "hets" to 5 different people, keeping the actual hets, and selling normals in their place.

Dave

I agree that pictures are important for good documentation. Of course no system is perfect but an added benefit of good documentation is to keep the owner straight. I've sold possible hets before I started doing documentation and seen them resold as hets. Perhaps some people don't understand the concept of a possible het and having it written down would help them keep it straight or at least help their customers have a chance at figuring it out in time. You also have to wonder how much potential there is for mixing snakes up in the average collection. Good pictures can sort out any mix-ups.

N/P

We have had a couple of people contact us to see if the het animal they were purchasing from someone was produced by us. They hadn't delt with the seller before, but knew our reputation. The current seller whom I did not know had the paperwork which had followed the animal through it's exchanges, but that can faked. Heck, chips can be removed and put into a normal and then sell the normal as the originally bought het for that matter.

We keep pics of patterns on each animal that are NOT included on the original "paperwork". It is an ID mark that cannot be changed. I simply had to request a pic of the animal from a certain angle and bingo..there was the unique mark.
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James and Vickie Bryan
Bryan Reptiles
bryanreptiles.tripod.com
bryanreptiles@lycos.com
A good name is more desirable than riches
Proverbs 22:1

My hets are sold with an invoice, and a signed picture with genetics information. This keeps people from saying they bought one of my animals from so and so and substituting it with some import they picked up for $5 (among other things).

It's not an end all be all. You have to trust the source. Hell, I have het pieds from Kahl and he did not provide me with genetics pictures. Just an invoice.

Just do your research. I believe there are more honest herpers out there than dishonest.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Papers come in handy when things do go wrong and you have to resale. Also helps prove to future customers where your stock originated.

Kevin

The photo ID sounds like a great idea. The breeder would have to keep a record of said snake and a photo id. So if anybody is looking into said snake they could call the breeder and get all info on the snake and confirm if they want. right?
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1.2.0 ball python (aragorn, arwen,`eowyn)
1.0.0 100% het pied (frodo)
1.0.0 columbian boa (squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
0.0.2 whites tree frog (trevor, kirmet)
0.0.5 pacific green tree frogs
3.2.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

unless it is a sheet of gold foil the paper really isn't worth much............

..........I make hets and 66% and 50% poss hets for a couple morphs..........and they are cheap enough that people can afford them.......and make alot of money of they prove out more than one of them......I use virgin females - and know what I get ....

........you have to trust the seller............

and know where they live..........
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you think????

What can it do?...when requested i give it...with photos. If i buy a snake from Joe scmo...even if joe schmo says the got it from NERD or whoever...I expect Joe Schhmo to back it up...because that is who i got it from.

If you have some trust of the seller...buy it...if they give you a reason not to trust them then don't.
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Michael Enriquez

THE MAN WHO WRITES IT!

Thats the truth!

I think that if you are buying a snake that has paper work that "proves" it's genetics then yes it is over rated. Becuase like others have said it is not hard to fake papers. Now if you are buying a snake that has papers that shows where it was born, when, who owned it before you, when it ate what it ate and when it shed, and to make sure that you are getting the snake you ordered (Proven by good photo) then the paper work is good to have.I bought 5 snakes last month and two came with papers and 3 did not. Now I am not just guessing what the snakes ate for the 2 with papers like I am with the 3 that has no papers. I have found what 2 of the 3 likes to eat.I am still trying to find what the last one likes and she has ignored all offereings so far. So papers have helped me. I also want to add that just because you are buying a het that has an albino parent and a normal parent, it does not mean that your "het" will give you albinos when bred with the proper snake. You still have to prove that your 100% het is a het after all. There is a small chance that the snake does not have the albino genetics. The punnet square shows what you should get not what you will get and a lot of people don't think about that when they buy snakes. Those are just my thoughts.